You Asked For It.....

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DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13088
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

You Asked For It.....

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:51 am

I've had a few droll NFBC'ers ask me to talk about Joey Votto lately. :D
Never one to turn down a challenge....

If you've read my stuff before, you'll know I'm not a big believer in sabrmetricians trying to tell fantasy players what to do.
For years, these folks have been perpetrating things that just are not true to fantasy players.
The base on balls, the Champion of sabrmetricians is NOT that important to OUR game.
A player does NOT own a skill. He merely rents it.
They've tried to make these things so for many years.
A walk is not always a good thing. Ask Mike Trout owners if they want to see a base on balls to their hitter with runners on second and third. Or even just a runner on second.
They'd say "No Way!"
Yet, these intentioned walks are considered all good by sabrs.
The best thing I can say to Trout owners is that a walk is better than making an out.
That's it.
It is no more than that.
The 'non out' does not over weight the 'What Could Have Been' to his owners.

Sabrmetricians have been under the assumption that the base on balls drove Joey Votto's game.
In part, they may be right.
For OUR game, however, it was never about the base on balls.
It was about the power.
Without that power, well, Votto is what he is today. A below average player for our game.

Votto has displayed power and average. Two of the three main ingredients for our recipe to success. Speed being the only slacker.
This year, Votto's power has been sapped.
He is now of little use to his owners.
Votto has scored 58 runs.
That ties him with teammate Billy Hamilton.
Sabrs and fans shit on Hamilton.
He is a one tool player. A judy.
Hamilton has 31 less hits and an incredible 54 less walks than Votto. Hamilton hits at the bottom of the order.
The difference being that it takes fewer hits to score Hamilton and his speed.
Without the home runs, Votto is essentially, a base clogger.
Even with Eugenio Suarez having a career RBI year, Votto is not scoring much.
Without the home runs, Votto becomes 'Less than Joey Votto.
A walker without the crutch of his home runs.
A sabr dream, an owner's nightmare.
By the way, Votto is third in baseball in OBP this year.
His owners just threw up in their mouth.

In 2010, Votto had his best year.
.324/106/37/113/16
Wow
He fell in love with the base on balls shortly after that year.
His walks went from 91 to at least 108 in each succeeding full year. 143 base on balls in 2015.
With those base on balls, his roto numbers went down.
He approached and even tied some of his roto categories from 2010, but only managed to exceed his batting average, no other categories.
I look at Votto and think what could have been.
I don't do that with any other player without a lot of injuries.

Votto made the conscious decision to change his approach.
Some champion the decision. Some don't.
I believe without that decision, he could have had an Albert Pujols type career.
His homers numbering in the 40's each year, not the 20's and 30's.
His RBI and Runs, easily at 100 and more.
I feel as if he cheated us from being better as a player.
And worse, he cheated himself.

Votto is an elegant hitter.
Truly, a real good hitter.
He'll probably get into the Hall of Fame, since sabrs are the rage in baseball.
He has less Runs, RBI, and only 10 more homers than Vada Pinson.
But, that won't matter.
He did what the sabrs cherish.
He walked. A lot.
This year though, even sabrs have to recognize that a walk is indeed, not as good as a hit.
Especially a home run.
Joey Votto has illustrated that, as well as one can, this year.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13088
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: You Asked For It.....

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:47 am

An ADDendum....

Do you remember a player named Max Bishop.
That's all right, few do.
Bishop played 12 years.
He played in less games than Votto, but drew more walks.
1338 games. 1153 walks.
Incredible numbers and even better walk per game ratio than Votto.

Bishop played from 1924-35.
They called him 'Camera Eye' for his ability to judge the strike zone.
Many thought he would have made a great umpire.
Bishop lead off and hit in front of Al Simmons, Jimmy Foxx, and Mickey Cochrane.
In 1930, he scored 117 runs, becoming the only hitter in Major League history to have scored more runs than having base hits.

Bishop played to his strength. He only hit 41 homers during his career. With that Hall of Fame threesome behind him, home runs became null and void for him.
My point is that yes, there is a time and place to revere the base on balls in baseball.
Bishop should be revered.
And even with a .271 batting average and less than stellar numbers besides walks and runs, I believe he should get consideration for the Hall.
He did his job better than most would do.
Votto, on the other hand, walks for the sake of walking.
His On Base Percentage, empty.
He has had few dangerous hitters behind him. He has not helped his team by being picky in which pitches to swing.
The Reds put him in a run producing place in the lineup, but run producing is not on his mind.
Votto would be the best player in baseball to lead off for a formidable team.
He has been Max Bishop without three Hall of Famers behind him.
Imagine him at the top of a Yankees or Red Sox lineup.
As is, he is wasted.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

Bronx Yankees
Posts: 1238
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:16 pm

Re: You Asked For It.....

Post by Bronx Yankees » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:00 pm

There is a time and place for walks, and a time and place for extending the zone and trying to drive the ball. Start of the 9th inning, down two runs, first guy up should be looking to get on base, by hit or walk or whatever. Votto seems to have the same approach regardless of the situation. He has decided to never extend the zone, and to take walks whenever four balls are thrown. While such approach is not particularly helpful for fantasy purposes, it also has its drawbacks in real baseball. Other than Suarez and Gennett, the Reds don't have many guys that can do damage with the bat. Sometimes, they need Votto to swing and drive in runs. At least three times over the last few weeks, I've seen Votto take a called third strike with multiple runners on base. Instead of looking to do damage, he did not swing because he thought the pitch might be a hair or two outside the strike zone. While one call could have gone either way, at least two others I saw clearly were strikes. He's been a very good player, but is not having a very good season. I expect he'll be punished for it next draft season. I don't see him going before Round 3, although I suspect there likely will be at least one person in every league who will consider that a ... wait for it ... value.

Mike
Mike Mager
"Bronx Yankees"

DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13088
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: You Asked For It.....

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:09 pm

Ha!
That one made me :lol:
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

DOUGHBOYS
Posts: 13088
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Re: You Asked For It.....

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:41 pm

A 'Columbo' "One more thing....."

Brandon Phillips had 100 rbi hitting behind Votto.
So did Duvall.
So now will Suarez.
The popular thinking was because Votto was on base so often.
There is another way of looking at it....
What if it isn't because Votto is on base so often, but that he has bypassed so many opportunities with runners on that others are having to do the heavy lifting of driving runners on?
I know from watching the Reds this year, that Suarez has been 'set up' many times by Votto not moving runners in one form or another.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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