Walking the Walk and Talking the Talk

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DOUGHBOYS
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Walking the Walk and Talking the Talk

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:35 am

Last night at the softball park, I received a text from John Pausma.
Something dramatic had happened in baseball.
It was 40-something degrees at the ball park.
After reading the text, I imagined a slow walking parade to celebrate the event that John had alluded to in the text.
In that parade would be 13 young men with their shirts off.
A singular letter painted on each torso.
S-A-B-R-S-F-O-R-V-O-T-T-O
Joey Votto drew his 1,000th walk last night.

Votto has been a great hitter.
An even better walker.
I'm not going to use this space to berate Votto....this time. :D
What I want to try and do is let some know how overrated the almighty walk has become for batters.

If there is an opposite to Joey Votto in baseball over the same time that Votto has played, it is Adam Jones.
Jones is and always has been one of the most aggressive hitters in baseball.
In our world or era of sabranalytictical mumbo jumbo, Adam Jones has never walked 40 times in a baseball season.
Not even 40 times!
He averages just 25 walks a year.
In his 13th year, he has 287 walks in his career.
Joey Votto had 287 walks in 2015 and 2017.

I believe that most would consider Votto as the better hitter.
I do.
Votto is selected in the top two or three rounds of NFBC drafts most years, while Jones hangs out with the seven-10 round players.
And sabrs, those sabrs will pound the drum that Joey Votto may be THE best player in baseball.
Ugh.
I get it. Sabrs love their walks. Too much.
Let's look into the stats of Votto and Jones to see what those extra walks have done for Votto.

As said before, Votto has drawn 700 more walks than Jones.
And, Votto is considered the better hitter. No doubt.
What I expected to find was that Votto would crush Jones in runs scored over their careers.
Jones has played in 100ish more games than Votto, since Votto was hurt one year.
Their teams, both offensive minded.

Here is what I found....

Votto has scored 865 runs in his career.
I expected more.
Here is a guy with over 1600 hits and 1000 walks with 257 guaranteed runs on homers, and he has scored just 865 runs.
This goes against sabrmetric principles.
What good is Votto walking if he doesn't score.
What purpose does this have?
Without his home runs, he has 1000 walks, 1345 hits, and 608 runs.
NO BUENO!

Adam Jones has 287 walks, 1667 hits, and scored 847 runs.
Almost the same amount that Votto has scored!
Votto has hit three more homers than Jones, so the magic is not in the home runs.
The magic is that Votto is more amenable to taking a walk.
The magic is that pitchers do not mind Votto taking a walk.
The magic is that a walk, in no way, means a run.
In Votto's case, walking Votto means there is around a 25% chance of Votto scoring.
Why NOT walk Votto?
Taking the bat out of the hands of a fella that can produce three runs with two runners on with one swing and reducing that chance to a 25 per cent chance of Votto even scoring, is and always has been, a NO brainer.
ESPECIALLY when Votto wants to help the pitcher by being obliging in taking a walk.

Here is the H + BB/RUN ratios...

Jones- 1954/847

Votto- 2602/865



This isn't a knock on Votto.
He's a damned good hitter and I'll say that even with his slow start this year.
I just want to get across that a walk is not everything it is cracked up to be.
The other night, I saw Julio Teheran pitch around Rhys Hoskins every time.
It was a great strategy.
The end result was that the Braves won a low scoring game.
Another end result was that Hoskins will be revered for taking those walks.
He didn't 'take' the walks. They were given to him.
And the plan worked.
THAT is what sabrs are not getting.
They will revere Hoskins at the end of the year for being a member of the sabrmetric party.
Without even looking if those walks really did help his club.
In his case, Hoskins NOT swinging, hurt his club.
Votto not swinging, has also hurt the Reds for many years.
Just look at their record during Votto's years.
But sabrs will never admit that even sometimes, a walk is a very bad thing.
And one thing we will never know is how many more home runs or rbi Joey Votto would have if not being so accepting in taking those 1000 walks.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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NorCalAtlFan
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Re: Walking the Walk and Talking the Talk

Post by NorCalAtlFan » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:29 am

yikes, still grumpy i see

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whale4evr
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Re: Walking the Walk and Talking the Talk

Post by whale4evr » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:57 pm

I get what your saying. Walks are only good if they lead to runs and the pitcher has a lot to say about who gets walked. They used to say that Ted Williams shouldn't have taken so many walks, that he should have swung at more pitches to help his team win games. He would always say get a good ball to hit and not give in to the pitcher -- remember his strike zone diagram from his book showing what he would hit in each section? I guess it comes down to approach and what works best for each player. Telling Clemente or Vlad Guerrero to take more "bad" balls would have been a crime. Each player has to figure that out for themselves I guess.

DOUGHBOYS
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Re: Walking the Walk and Talking the Talk

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:28 pm

It's a fair point.
I wouldn't want to change Votto as a hitter.
Nor Jones.
Or especially Williams.
All great hitters in their own right.

Today, Votto came up in the first inning with one out, a runner on third.
He walked.
Later, he led off an inning and was 'allowed' to hit. He singled.
He scored neither time. Neither did the Reds.
As said, it's not really a criticism of Votto. He is just Votto being Votto.
I AM criticizing sabrs who blow the number of walks by a player, way out of proportion.
At the end of the day, it is forgotten that Votto was walked with a runner on third and there was no scoring in the inning.
What is chalked up at the end of the year is that it was another golden walk that sabrs swear by.
It was used as a defensive tactic. It worked. As it does a lot with Votto. Yet sabrs chalk it up as an offensive success. Always.
That, is what gets me.

As the numbers showed in my original post, Votto's runs are minuscule in relation to his hits and walks.
His walks are ballyhoo'ed by many.
Especially sabrs.
Which is really ironic in many ways.
Chief among them is that sabrs try to disregard RBI as a stat too dependent on teammates.
Yet, if Votto walks, that is a victory, even though nobody is driving him in and he does not score.
What?
It just makes little sense to me in how sabrs look at walks.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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Edwards Kings
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Re: Walking the Walk and Talking the Talk

Post by Edwards Kings » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:24 am

Yes, SABRS do view walks better than outs. It doesn't help the Votto argument as in his case, he can be walked at will because there is no one behind him that opposing pitchers are scared of, a point which was made before. So he is the anomaly that should not junk the whole concept. Votto shouldn't swing at bad pitches because the Priceless Reds are so bad. EDIT: I know you are not saying that, only that SABRs revere Votto more than perhaps they should.

SPSD ("Society for the Prevention of SABR Defamation") ;)

Wayne Edwards (43% of the time)
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer

DOUGHBOYS
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Re: Walking the Walk and Talking the Talk

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:43 am

Duh, a walk is better than an out :shock: :)
It's not about a choice between the two.
Brian Kenny lays a rug out five times a day and bows to the direction of Cincinnati.
It is just wrong.

Sabrs dismiss rbi, revere walks.
Yet, walks have a hard time scoring without rbi.
Will the circle be unbroken?

Freddy Freeman was getting the Votto treatment before last night.
He was walking at a large rate.
It doesn't say more for Freeman, he is just being avoided by pitchers to throw to Markakis.
Yet, at the end of the year (had Freeman remained healthy), Kenny would have aimed his bows at Atlanta as well.

It's wonderful that some players walk. Good for them.
But don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining when defining a hitter as to the amount of times he draws a base on balls.
Each base on balls is in a different context.
The pitcher is wild.
The pitcher is avoiding.
The pitcher knows he can make his pitches and if a walk results, it's ok.
The batter has a long at bat and 'earns' a walk.
Each walk, a different context, YET, at the end of the year, EVERY walk considered a victory for the batter.
Adam Jones approach works for Adam Jones.
Joey Votto's approach works for Joey Votto.
Both, good hitter's in their own right.
We should revere Votto because he 'walks' better?
When Votto scores more runs, because of those walks, sure, he is helping his team.
But wake up sabrs, RBI are needed to make bases on balls work.
Yep, those RBI that you disregard.

It goes back to sabrs being the ninth hitter in the Little League lineup.
"A WALK IS AS GOOD AS A HIT!" His coach yelled. Knowing a hit was unlikely.
He took that to heart and thought his job was done when walking.
RBI?
Those are for other players.
Disregard.
Now, those ninth place hitters have grown up and become sabrs.
They still want their place in baseball.
Achieving it through their bread and butter, the base on balls.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

headhunters
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Re: Walking the Walk and Talking the Talk

Post by headhunters » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:15 am

many fantasy players wish freeman had walked last night. don't worry joey bats can play 1st.

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Edwards Kings
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Re: Walking the Walk and Talking the Talk

Post by Edwards Kings » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:26 pm

CNN is reporting that hackers have....well...hacked Dan Kenyon and discovered his favorite songs:

Walk This Way
Aerosmith · 1975

Walking On Sunshine
Katrina and the Waves · 1983

These Boots Are Made for Walking
Nancy Sinatra · 1966

Walk of Life
Dire Straits · 1985

Walk Like An Egyptian
The Bangles · 1986

I Walk the Line
Johnny Cash · 1957

You'll Never Walk Alone
Gerry and the Pacemakers · 1963

Take a Walk
Passion Pit · 2012

Walk the Dinosaur
Was (Not Was) · 1988

Ok...Dan was not really hacked...someone saw his mix tape in his...yes...wait for it...Sony Walkman!
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer

DOUGHBOYS
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Re: Walking the Walk and Talking the Talk

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:33 am

Ah Wayne, you missed the best one's!

'Walk, Don't Run' by the Ventures. Awesome instrumental.

And of course, Votto's favorite.....

'Walk Like a Man' by the Four Seasons.

I will concede to anybody that Joey Votto is a splendid hitter. He really is.
I enjoy watching him.
And also on a personal level, I can never own the man for fantasy baseball purposes.
The walks send me through the roof when thinking of all the opportunities missed on a fantasy level.

This is one of the reasons there is a rub between sabrmetrics and fantasy baseball.
The sabr will applaud any walk. And I do mean ANY WALK.
"Long live On Base Percentage!"
The fantasy player in the NFBC will only applaud a walk if it results in an rbi, a run, or stolen base.
The three outcomes of which Votto rarely rewards his owners when 'Walking Like a Man'.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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Edwards Kings
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Re: Walking the Walk and Talking the Talk

Post by Edwards Kings » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:47 pm

DOUGHBOYS wrote:Ah Wayne, you missed the best one's!

'Walk, Don't Run' by the Ventures. Awesome instrumental.

And of course, Votto's favorite.....

'Walk Like a Man' by the Four Seasons.
OK. I will give you the Ventures, but Frankie Valli singing "Walk Like a Man" in a falsetto pitch that would be the envy of any castrato was just freaky.
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer

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