There was a post that stated Roger Clemens should be in the Hall of Fame because he was found not guilty yesterday.
(Start rant here)
There was a time when America was as simple as that. Not guilty MEANT not guilty.
Not now.
Now, going to court has become a rich man's game. My lawyers can beat your lawyers. Lost, is the truth.
Now, people like OJ Simpson, and Barry Bonds, and Roger Clemens, and just about any celebrity or sports star can be found not guilty because they have the means to throw money at the problem.
Are they REALLY not guilty?
We don't know.
No matter the rulings of 12 people, we still hold our own opinions.
In the court of public opinion, most rich people are found guilty.
Court is not fair anymore. The Governor of Illinois tried to sell a political office for a million dollars and is serving time in what we in Colorado call 'The Country Club'.
In other words, he's living the good, albeit, stationary life.
Even when convicted, they win.
Court has become a sport in a sense.
The judge, the umpire.
The lawyers, the players.
The defendant, the gambler, betting on his players.
The media and fans, the media and fans.
But getting back to whether Clemens deserves to be in the Hall of Fame....
It's a tough call for me.
I loved watching Clemens pitch. I can't remember a more disciplined pitcher than Clemens.
He was a tough sombitch. Simple as that.
Without the thought of steroids or hgh or whatever other Mothers Little Helpers. Clemens would have the Satisfaction of being a first ballot Hall of Famer. He could Paint it Black like nobody's business.
(And yes, I'm going to Ruby Tuesday for lunch)
But Clemens name being associated with PED's changes everything. Court finding or no court finding.
Hall of Fame voters are like us. Each different. Each with a different opinion. Not like 12 jurors.
There allowed to be swayed by outside influences.
And so far, any name associated with ped's has been thoroughly obliterated by the Hall.
Rafael Palmeiro has dreamy hall of fame numbers. It all doesn't matter. The site of him pointing his finger and swearing he never did PED's is at the forefront of most Hall of Fame voters minds.
The Hall of Fame used to be a very predictable vote. Through the 50's, 60's, and 70's the public and Hall voters agreed on most players voted in. Then something happened, with the explosion of the media, the internet, and technology, the voters changed. Some used their vote as a pulpit on their sites and channels. Some went the other way, and would vote on players without even following the sport.
They're a disjointed bunch. A bunch that is easily influenced by their own brethren in the media.
Some have the opinion that any tainting of the sport is bad and that a vote for Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro or any soul connected with PED's would be wrong.
It took a passionate speech by Johnny Roseboro who was smacked over the head by a bat wielding Juan Marichal to get Marichal in the Hall. Marichal had the numbers. He was along with Koufax and Gibson one of the most dominant pitchers in baseball. But, Hall of Fame voters like their players pristine, and it was only after Roseboro's plea and the third Hall vote that Marichal was gained admittance.
Recently, Roberto Alomar was not on the first ballot. Penalized for his spitting on an umpire.
I doubt that Bonds or Clemens, or Sosa get into the Hall of Fame on the first ballot.
In the meantime, Greg Maddux does out of that same group.
It's a penalty they'll have to suffer. Not only must you play the game well, it must be played 'clean'.
Will they ever get in?
Probably.
Somehow, the door will open for those that dabbled in PED's.
Whether it's the voters buckling a bit or somebody like Pudge Rodriguez getting in, then admitting to PED's.
It'll happen.
But, not before being spanked first.
What the Hall of Fame did to Ron Santo can never be lived down in my eyes. Here was a man that just wanted to join his friends Billy Williams, Ernie Banks, and Fergie Jenkins in that special place before he died. But some voters held some of Santo's on and off field doings against him and couldn't even give him that joy before his passing.
If they could be hardnosed to a dying player, they will find it even easier when it comes to any player associated with PED's.
The last thing they'll be thinking about is what 12 other people thought yesterday.
And, the court of public opinion probably feels that same way.
Court is Sport
Court is Sport
Last edited by DOUGHBOYS on Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Re: Court is Sport
I tend to have a little more faith in our laws and courts than most.
In Clemens case, he was the biggest fish, possibly Bonds too. The Mitchell report contained the same hearsay evidence on Clemens given to them by McNamee. Rep. Waxman wanted a big fish and with nothing more than Statements by McNamee in the report, they went after Clemens when he testified under oath to Congress he never used them. What some don’t remember or know is that Clemens volunteered to testify and was not subpoenaed and he didn’t take the fifth. Palmiero Said he never took them either, and then shortly after he failed a drug test for them. But there was no story or he was not considered a big fish. They probably wanted McGwire too, but without perjury to go after him on, they had no case. McGwire at least chose not to lie and in fact jsut pleaded the 5th over and over.
I Served on a Federal Civil Rights case in the late 90's in New York, that lasted 6 weeks and I like to believe that 12 people do take thier service seriously. They/We/I judge the merits, evidence and witnesses and make the best honest decsion they can make with what is presented and what the judge tells them thier options are.
A sidebar about my case, I noticed that a NYC Defense lawyer, one of a whole team of them, a woman, would always ask for a "Comfort Break" when things were not going well for her side. While she had one of the plaintiffs on the stand, she was hammering away at the guy and it was obvious, at least to me, he was struggling and needed a break. So I raised my hand and Judge Spratt asked, yes juror number 9, what is it? I said I needed a "Comfort Break" and he said comfort break it is. The look on her (lawyers) face was priceless. Judge Spratt asked me after the trial, in his chambers if I had known what a comfort break was before the trial started and I Said I did not. I asked him was it appropriate at that time and he said yes.
We found in favor of the 7 Transit authority workers whose rights were violated while on the job by NYC. So all the money, resources and influence bought NYC nothing and I feel to this day we all made the right choice. Just the facts and evidence.
I like to believe Clemens went balls to the wall to defend himself and attempt to clear his name. As you say, he was a beast, he could paint, and not many pithcers ever worked as hard as he did. His workouts are legendary. I don't have a vote for the HOF, but if I did, my one vote would be to put him in. There are plenty of characters in the HOF, who were not saints and plenty who did Greenies, Amphetimnes and other drugs by the truck loads in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's. Right are wrong, those are facts.
Today, too many people live on a high horse.
The bottom line is 12 decent people decided Clemens did not lie to Congress when he stated "I never used PEDS".
Blago got what he deserved, he played on the wrong side of the tracks in Chi Town Politics and got caught and 12 people said this way to Jail.
Again, just my opinion about Clemens going to the HOF and I agree with you, he will get in eventually, its just a shame not on the first ballot.
One other thing I have always considered on looking at Clemens career and how could he be so dominant into his 40's. Well Nolan Ryan was also, in fact he threw harder than Clemens did in thier 40's. How did he do it? Me says work ethic and they both believed the same thing- strong legs. Both of them started out as skinny young pitchers who grew into big strapping, strong pitchers and with no fear of Hard Work. And I dont think anyone thinks Nolan ever did roids at the end. Hard work seems to be dying trait these days.
In Clemens case, he was the biggest fish, possibly Bonds too. The Mitchell report contained the same hearsay evidence on Clemens given to them by McNamee. Rep. Waxman wanted a big fish and with nothing more than Statements by McNamee in the report, they went after Clemens when he testified under oath to Congress he never used them. What some don’t remember or know is that Clemens volunteered to testify and was not subpoenaed and he didn’t take the fifth. Palmiero Said he never took them either, and then shortly after he failed a drug test for them. But there was no story or he was not considered a big fish. They probably wanted McGwire too, but without perjury to go after him on, they had no case. McGwire at least chose not to lie and in fact jsut pleaded the 5th over and over.
I Served on a Federal Civil Rights case in the late 90's in New York, that lasted 6 weeks and I like to believe that 12 people do take thier service seriously. They/We/I judge the merits, evidence and witnesses and make the best honest decsion they can make with what is presented and what the judge tells them thier options are.
A sidebar about my case, I noticed that a NYC Defense lawyer, one of a whole team of them, a woman, would always ask for a "Comfort Break" when things were not going well for her side. While she had one of the plaintiffs on the stand, she was hammering away at the guy and it was obvious, at least to me, he was struggling and needed a break. So I raised my hand and Judge Spratt asked, yes juror number 9, what is it? I said I needed a "Comfort Break" and he said comfort break it is. The look on her (lawyers) face was priceless. Judge Spratt asked me after the trial, in his chambers if I had known what a comfort break was before the trial started and I Said I did not. I asked him was it appropriate at that time and he said yes.
We found in favor of the 7 Transit authority workers whose rights were violated while on the job by NYC. So all the money, resources and influence bought NYC nothing and I feel to this day we all made the right choice. Just the facts and evidence.
I like to believe Clemens went balls to the wall to defend himself and attempt to clear his name. As you say, he was a beast, he could paint, and not many pithcers ever worked as hard as he did. His workouts are legendary. I don't have a vote for the HOF, but if I did, my one vote would be to put him in. There are plenty of characters in the HOF, who were not saints and plenty who did Greenies, Amphetimnes and other drugs by the truck loads in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's. Right are wrong, those are facts.
Today, too many people live on a high horse.
The bottom line is 12 decent people decided Clemens did not lie to Congress when he stated "I never used PEDS".
Blago got what he deserved, he played on the wrong side of the tracks in Chi Town Politics and got caught and 12 people said this way to Jail.
Again, just my opinion about Clemens going to the HOF and I agree with you, he will get in eventually, its just a shame not on the first ballot.
One other thing I have always considered on looking at Clemens career and how could he be so dominant into his 40's. Well Nolan Ryan was also, in fact he threw harder than Clemens did in thier 40's. How did he do it? Me says work ethic and they both believed the same thing- strong legs. Both of them started out as skinny young pitchers who grew into big strapping, strong pitchers and with no fear of Hard Work. And I dont think anyone thinks Nolan ever did roids at the end. Hard work seems to be dying trait these days.
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headhunters
- Posts: 1976
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:00 pm
Re: Court is Sport
outlaw- nice post but i must correct 1 thing- and you pointed out in your post that you served on a jury. the jury is NEVER instructed to find the defendant innocent- just "not guilty". That is a big big difference- and the cornerstone of our system. the jury did not find that roger didn't lie- they found that the government couldn't prove he did.
Re: Court is Sport
Interesting perspective by two of the all time greats. As of now,there are no other living HOF's saying he should not go in. A lot of them probaby are hoping they never get asked the question. Also not many saying he should either, but I think Jackson and Bench coming out will convince others he belongs. At the end of the day its the Players club, not the writers who never played the game. I for one wish it was only living HOF's who voted. the Writers all have so many agenda's and most couldnt tell a slider from a cutter.
Reggie Jackson, who believes baseball turned its back for years to rampant steroid use, told USA TODAY Sports that Roger Clemens deserves to join him in the Hall of Fame in 2013, a sentiment echoed by Hall of Fame catcher Johnny Bench.
Jackson and Bench, who have been critical about the possible induction of steroid users into the Hall of Fame, said that Clemens' acquittal on all charges of lying to Congress in denying use of performance-enhancing drugs should open the door to the game's Cooperstown, N.Y. shrine.
"Here's a guy who took his principles that he believed in, and exposed himself to that kind of ridicule, to prove he was right,'' Jackson told USA TODAY Sports in a telephone interview. "He was proven through the legal system that he was correct. If you can beat Congress and federal judges, buddy, you must have had a pretty strong case.
"Yet, I listen to television today, and TV says that although he was ruled not guilty, he's going to be held accountable in public court, and they doubt seriously he'll ever get into the Hall of Fame.
"I don't understand that. He was ruled not guilty. He beat Congress. Our judicial system says he's not guilty. By that ruling, he should get into the Hall of Fame, regardless of anybody's opinion.''
Bench told USA TODAY Sports that he didn't need a trial to prove Clemens' innocence. He took justice on in his own way. He directly asked Clemens himself years ago whether he took performance-enhancing drugs.
"Roger was straight to the point with me,'' Bench said in a telephone interview, "and he told me he was innocent. That was good enough for me. I didn't need a trial. I wouldn't think he'd lie to me. Now, it's up to the voters.
"I'm sure people will still have some kind of resentment, and people want to keep the purity of [the Hall of Fame], but for me, I'd welcome him into the Hall of Fame.''
Jackson, who says there likely will be Hall of Famers that boycott the ceremony when players linked to steroid use are inducted, believes that Clemens and Barry Bonds belong. They each won their case in federal court, with Bonds only being charged with obstruction of justice, not steroid use. Players who tested positive like Rafael Palmeiro, or admitted to steroid use like Mark McGwire, don't belong in the Hall, Jackson says. The voting bloc has not been kind to many of the game's stars from the height of the steroid era, and several voters have already expressed reservations about voting for Bonds and Clemens.
Yet, with Bonds convicted on the single obstruction charge, Bench isn't sure he belongs in the Hall of Fame. Bonds, after all, is a convicted felon unless he wins his appeal.
"There's always been a little more haze over his name and everything else,'' Bench said. "They're certainly not going to elect [Mark] McGwire, so I don't think they'll vote for Barry. That's just the voting the way it is.
"If [Bonds] was exonerated and everything was clear, it might be different. But there's still pending stuff going on. Until that's worked out, there will be a little hesitancy for all of us.''
There will be plenty more test cases on the ballot. Houston Astros slugger Jeff Bagwell, who never tested positive nor was remotely connected to PEDs in his career, has failed to garner more than 57% of the writers' vote. Sammy Sosa and Mike Piazza, who also never tested positive but who experienced a remarkable increase in size and strength, are on the ballot for the first time this year.
"There's a wavy line there,'' says Jackson. "Some guys will skate away unscathed. Some don't. I'm glad I don't have to resolve it. I'm glad I don't get a vote.''
Said Bench: "There are several guys out there, you can't make a decision on. You don't know what the Commissioner holds in his hand, if there's a basic evidence of some form, or somebody didn't pass the acid test. The Commissioner has to dance around the rain drop. How much do you release, how much do you leak?''
There are no true answers, only confusion, with Hall of Famers not sure any longer who to believe.
"Part of this is our fault,'' Jackson said. "We enjoyed the success of the great home-run race in '98 [with McGwire and Sosa]. It used to be that just two guys [Roger Maris and Babe Ruth] hit 60 homers, then it was four guys that hit 60, and doing it every year. Then, it was like 10 guys who hit 50 homers. It was like, "Whoa!' It got stupid.
"It wasn't just the game's greats. It was Luis Gonzalez (57 in 2001). It was Brady Anderson (50 in 1996). When that happened, we were shocked. Our culture was shocked. We lost our measuring sticks.
"The greatness of the nature we cherished, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe DiMaggio, Frank Robinson, the names that were so important to us, we lost all of that.
"We all sat back and watched it get out of control. It was like, "OK, now how do we fix it?' [Commissioner] Bud Selig is doing his darnedest trying to correct that, but the horses got loose. They're already out of the gate.''
Yet, for Clemens and Bonds, they should no longer be subjected to the speculation, Jackson says. The gray turned to black and white, he says, once they were found not guilty in federal court.
"You have to really admire what Roger did. He stood up for what he believed in,'' Jackson says. "Here's a guy whose life has been altered, which cost a fortune to buy part of his credibility back, and he did it. He won't get his money back. But he paid for the truth.
"I'd be proud to welcome him into the Hall of Fame.''
Reggie Jackson, who believes baseball turned its back for years to rampant steroid use, told USA TODAY Sports that Roger Clemens deserves to join him in the Hall of Fame in 2013, a sentiment echoed by Hall of Fame catcher Johnny Bench.
Jackson and Bench, who have been critical about the possible induction of steroid users into the Hall of Fame, said that Clemens' acquittal on all charges of lying to Congress in denying use of performance-enhancing drugs should open the door to the game's Cooperstown, N.Y. shrine.
"Here's a guy who took his principles that he believed in, and exposed himself to that kind of ridicule, to prove he was right,'' Jackson told USA TODAY Sports in a telephone interview. "He was proven through the legal system that he was correct. If you can beat Congress and federal judges, buddy, you must have had a pretty strong case.
"Yet, I listen to television today, and TV says that although he was ruled not guilty, he's going to be held accountable in public court, and they doubt seriously he'll ever get into the Hall of Fame.
"I don't understand that. He was ruled not guilty. He beat Congress. Our judicial system says he's not guilty. By that ruling, he should get into the Hall of Fame, regardless of anybody's opinion.''
Bench told USA TODAY Sports that he didn't need a trial to prove Clemens' innocence. He took justice on in his own way. He directly asked Clemens himself years ago whether he took performance-enhancing drugs.
"Roger was straight to the point with me,'' Bench said in a telephone interview, "and he told me he was innocent. That was good enough for me. I didn't need a trial. I wouldn't think he'd lie to me. Now, it's up to the voters.
"I'm sure people will still have some kind of resentment, and people want to keep the purity of [the Hall of Fame], but for me, I'd welcome him into the Hall of Fame.''
Jackson, who says there likely will be Hall of Famers that boycott the ceremony when players linked to steroid use are inducted, believes that Clemens and Barry Bonds belong. They each won their case in federal court, with Bonds only being charged with obstruction of justice, not steroid use. Players who tested positive like Rafael Palmeiro, or admitted to steroid use like Mark McGwire, don't belong in the Hall, Jackson says. The voting bloc has not been kind to many of the game's stars from the height of the steroid era, and several voters have already expressed reservations about voting for Bonds and Clemens.
Yet, with Bonds convicted on the single obstruction charge, Bench isn't sure he belongs in the Hall of Fame. Bonds, after all, is a convicted felon unless he wins his appeal.
"There's always been a little more haze over his name and everything else,'' Bench said. "They're certainly not going to elect [Mark] McGwire, so I don't think they'll vote for Barry. That's just the voting the way it is.
"If [Bonds] was exonerated and everything was clear, it might be different. But there's still pending stuff going on. Until that's worked out, there will be a little hesitancy for all of us.''
There will be plenty more test cases on the ballot. Houston Astros slugger Jeff Bagwell, who never tested positive nor was remotely connected to PEDs in his career, has failed to garner more than 57% of the writers' vote. Sammy Sosa and Mike Piazza, who also never tested positive but who experienced a remarkable increase in size and strength, are on the ballot for the first time this year.
"There's a wavy line there,'' says Jackson. "Some guys will skate away unscathed. Some don't. I'm glad I don't have to resolve it. I'm glad I don't get a vote.''
Said Bench: "There are several guys out there, you can't make a decision on. You don't know what the Commissioner holds in his hand, if there's a basic evidence of some form, or somebody didn't pass the acid test. The Commissioner has to dance around the rain drop. How much do you release, how much do you leak?''
There are no true answers, only confusion, with Hall of Famers not sure any longer who to believe.
"Part of this is our fault,'' Jackson said. "We enjoyed the success of the great home-run race in '98 [with McGwire and Sosa]. It used to be that just two guys [Roger Maris and Babe Ruth] hit 60 homers, then it was four guys that hit 60, and doing it every year. Then, it was like 10 guys who hit 50 homers. It was like, "Whoa!' It got stupid.
"It wasn't just the game's greats. It was Luis Gonzalez (57 in 2001). It was Brady Anderson (50 in 1996). When that happened, we were shocked. Our culture was shocked. We lost our measuring sticks.
"The greatness of the nature we cherished, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe DiMaggio, Frank Robinson, the names that were so important to us, we lost all of that.
"We all sat back and watched it get out of control. It was like, "OK, now how do we fix it?' [Commissioner] Bud Selig is doing his darnedest trying to correct that, but the horses got loose. They're already out of the gate.''
Yet, for Clemens and Bonds, they should no longer be subjected to the speculation, Jackson says. The gray turned to black and white, he says, once they were found not guilty in federal court.
"You have to really admire what Roger did. He stood up for what he believed in,'' Jackson says. "Here's a guy whose life has been altered, which cost a fortune to buy part of his credibility back, and he did it. He won't get his money back. But he paid for the truth.
"I'd be proud to welcome him into the Hall of Fame.''
Re: Court is Sport
If Roger Clemens had to ride a horse to the Hall of Fame, he'd be in trouble.
His dead horse has been copied, pasted, and beaten.
His dead horse has been copied, pasted, and beaten.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
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Navel Lint
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Re: Court is Sport
Outlaw wrote: At the end of the day its the Players club, not the writers who never played the game. I for one wish it was only living HOF's who voted. the Writers all have so many agenda's and most couldnt tell a slider from a cutter.
'
Tell that to Ron Santo.
After the 2001 Veterans Committee election of Bill Mazeroski, one in which many felt Maz was voted in under “questionable” circumstances, the HOF changed the makeup and election procedures of the committee. The committee was changed from a “select” group of voters to one that consisted of all living HOF members.
This new committee Did Not elect any player in 2003, 2005, or 2007 when they had the chance. Like most aspects of life, a majority of the people (HOF players in this case) didn’t think that those that followed were as good as they were. The committee members clearly had their own agenda…… keeping HOF membership exclusive.
It wasn’t until 2009 when the committee was restructured again that a player, Joe Gordon, was elected. Ron Santo however was still left on the outside looking in.
In 2011 the HOF again restructured the Veterans Committee, going away from allowing all HOF members to vote, and moving to smaller sub-committees that would vote on player/managers by era. It was this group that voted for Santo in 2012.
Now you might think that Ron Santo shouldn’t be in the HOF and that the living members did the right thing in ’03, ’05, ’07, and ’09 by not voting him in, I for one do not think that.
[Side Note on player grudges. Joe Morgan doesn’t think that Ryne Sandberg should be in the Hall. I’m not sure what his beef is with Sandberg, but he refuses to say anything good about Sandberg. In fact, Morgan went so far as to “boycott” Sandberg’s induction day in 2005. His absence made a big ‘statement’. Morgan is the Vice-Chair of the HOF Board, he sits in row one right next to the podium every year during the inductions, but didn’t show up for Sandberg…………………………. Yeah, players have agenda’s and hold grudges too……………………………and so do I, against Morgan.]
Russel -Navel Lint
"Fans don't boo nobodies"
-Reggie Jackson
"Fans don't boo nobodies"
-Reggie Jackson
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rockitsauce
- Posts: 1095
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:00 pm
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headhunters
- Posts: 1976
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:00 pm
Re: Court is Sport
joe morgam is just an a**. great ballplayer- but a jerk. that deal with sandberg was as petty as it gets- and i am a sox fan.
Re: Court is Sport
Most current, EX and HOF players Don't like Morgan. However most also would've have easily voted him (morgan) into the Hall. Why Sanberg had to wait a few years to get in who knows. I feel it was'nt because of Morgan. More likely the mostly ingnorant class of Baseball writers for some reason. As for Santo not getting in, it was shame and the writers who didnt vote for him 15 times are the ones to be held accountable. Hopefully he enjoyed his election form the heavens.
The 2012 Current Golden Era Veterans committee consists of Hall of Famers Hank Aaron, Pat Gillick, Al Kaline, Ralph Kiner, Tommy Lasorda, Juan Marichal, Brooks Robinson, and Billy Williams. Major league executives Paul Beeston (Toronto Blue Jays), Bill DeWitt (St. Louis Cardinals), Roland Hemond, (Arizona Diamondbacks), Gene Michael (New York Yankees), and Al Rosen (retired) were also part of the committee. Three media members Dick Kaegel, Jack O'Connell and Dave Van Dyck rounded up the group of 16. Hall of fame Chairman of the board Jane Forbes Clark served as the non voting chairman of the committee.
I still think it should be only present living HOF members who get to vote. 573 BBWAA writers get to vote. Try finding a list of them. It Does'nt exist because they dont want to deal with having to explain there idiotic voting.
Here is a partial list. Most of Fans are lucky if we know 20-30 names just on this incomplete list. Also Interstign commentary from one of thier own.
Peter Abraham, Boston Globe [10]
J.A. Adande, ESPN.com, formerly The Los Angeles Times [20]
Dave Albee, Marin Independent Journal [21]
Maury Allen, New York Post, retired [22]
Dom Amore, The Hartford Courant [23]
Mel Antonen, USA Today [24]
Phil Arvia, SouthtownStar [25]
Geoff Baker, Seattle Times [26]
Bill Ballou, Telegram & Gazette of Worcester [27]
Mike Bauman, MLB.com [28]
Ira Berkow, The New York Times [29]
Jeff Blair, Toronto Globe and Mail
Barry Bloom, MLB.com [28]
Ron Blum, Associated Press [30]
Paul Bodi, MLB.com [28]
Hal Bodley, USA Today [30]
Thomas Boswell, Washington Post [17] (non-voting member)
Pat Borzi, New York Times (non-voting member)
Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette [31]
Mark Bradley, Atlanta Journal-Constitution [32]
Steve Buckley, Boston Herald
Don Burke, Newark Star-Ledger [33]
Jim Caple, ESPN [34]
Pat Caputo, Oakland Press
Marc Carig, New Jersey Star Ledger]]
Will Carroll, Baseball Prospectus[35]
Bill Center, The San Diego Union-Tribune [23]
Murray Chass, New York Times (non-voting member)
Gene Collier, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette [31]
Bill Conlin, Philadelphia Daily News [36]
Ron Cook, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette [31]
Jose Covarrubias, retired
Joe Cowley, Chicago Sun-Times [37]
Jerry Crasnick, ESPN[34]
Ken Davidoff, Newsday
Jose de Jesus Ortiz, Houston Chronicle[38]
Steve Dilbeck, Los Angeles Daily News[37]
Mike Dodd, USA Today [30]
Mike Downey, Chicago Tribune [39]
Rich Draper, MLB.com [28]
Mike Dyer, Long Island Press, retired
Gordon Edes, ESPN [40]
Bob Elliott, Toronto Sun [41]
John Erardi, Cincinnati Enquirer [37]
Mark Faller, The Arizona Republic [42]
Mark Feinsand, The Daily News [43]
John R. Finger, CSNPhilly.com[44]
Jeffrey Flanagan, The Kansas City Star [45]
Jeff Fletcher, Santa Rosa Press Democrat [28]
Sean Forman, Sports Reference LLC [46]
Gerry Fraley, Dallas Morning News [47]
Tom Gage, The Detroit News [23]
Peter Gammons, MLB Network [34]
Jim Gauger, Trenton Times, retired
Steven Gietschier, Sporting News, retired
Rich Glanzer, Lynbrook Times Gazette
Ben Goessling, MASN [48]
Steven Goldman, Baseball Prospectus
Pedro Gomez, ESPN [49]
Mark Gonzalez, Chicago Tribune [23]
Jerry Green, The Detroit News [50]
Ken Gurnick, MLB.com [28]
Tony Grossi, The Plain Dealer [51]
Paul Hagen, Philadelphia Daily News [52]
Jim Hawkins, The Oakland Press,[23]
Joe Henderson, Tampa Tribune,[41]
Lynn Henning, The Detroit News [53]
Jon Heyman, Sports Illustrated [54]
Myron Holtzman, St. Louis Globe-Democrat, retired
Jeff Horrigan, Boston Herald [55]
Paul Hoynes, The Plain Dealer [51]
Rick Hummel, St. Louis Post-Dispatch [47]
Bob Hunter, Columbus Dispatch [56]
Jay Jaffe, Baseball Prospectus
Bruce Jenkins, San Francisco Chronicle [57]
Chuck Johnson, USA Today [30]
Richard Justice, Houston Chronicle [4]
Dick Kaegel, MLB.com [28]
Christina Kahrl, Baseball Prospectus [35]
Ann Killion, San Jose Mercury News [58]
Bob Klapisch, ESPN [34]
Mike Klis, Denver Post [41]
Gwen Knapp, San Francisco Chronicle [59]
Michael Knisley, ESPN [34]
Dejan Kovacevic, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette [31]
Steve Krasner, Providence Journal [37]
Doug Krikorian, Long Beach Press-Telegram,[41]
Tim Kurkjian, ESPN [34]
Paul Ladewski, SouthtownStar [60]
Scott Lauber, Wilmington News Journal [61]
Keith Law, ESPN [62]
Mike Lefkow, Contra Costa Times [63]
Joseph Liao, World Journal [11]
[Ben Lindbergh]], Baseball Prospectus
Bill Livingston, The Plain Dealer [51]
Seth Livingstone, USA Today [30]
John Lowe, Detroit Free Press
Bill Madden, New York Daily News [24]
Tony Massarotti, Boston Globe [40]
Sean McAdam, CSNNE [34]
Hal McCoy, Dayton Daily News [64]
Dan McGrath, Chicago Tribune [41]
Stan McNeal, Sporting News [12]
Paul Meyer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette [31]
Bernie Miklasz, St. Louis Post-Dispatch [47]
Scott Miller, CBS Sportsline [30]
Larry Milson, The Globe and Mail [65]
Jim Molony, MLB.com [28]
Ernest Moreno, MLB.com [28]
Carrie Muskat, MLB.com [28]
Rob Neyer, ESPN [62]
Bob Nightengale, USA Today [30]
Marty Noble, MLB.com [28]
Jack O'Connell, Hartford Courant [66]
Dave O'Hara, retired [23]
Buster Olney, ESPN [34]
Woody Paige, The Denver Post [67]
Rob Parker, The Detroit News[68]
Jeff Peek, Traverse City Record Eagle [69]
John Perrotto, Beaver County Times [37]
Mike Peticca, The Plain Dealer [51]
Bill Plaschke, Los Angeles Times [41] (non-voting member)
Joe Posnanski, The Kansas City Star [70]
Ryan Pyner, MLB.com
Luis E. Rangel, El Nuevo Herald [13]
Ray Ratto, San Francisco Chronicle
Tracy Ringolsby, Rocky Mountain News [71]
Phil Rogers, ESPN [34]
John Romano, St. Petersburg Times
Bob Rosen, Elias Sports Bureau [23]
Ken Rosenthal, Fox Sports [72]
Roger Rubin, New York Daily News[73]
Jim Salisbury, CSNPhilly.com, formerly The Philadelphia Inquirer [74]
Peter Schmuck, The Baltimore Sun (non-voting member); elected President of the BBWAA in 2005.
Alan Schwarz, Baseball America [52]
Chaz Scoggins, The Sun of Lowell [75]
Dan Shaughnessy, The Boston Globe [24]
Bud Shaw, The Plain Dealer [51]
John Shea, San Francisco Chronicle [30]
Joel Sherman, New York Post
Dave Skretta, The Associated Press
Claire Smith, ESPN[76]
Bob Smizik, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette [77]
Jim Souhan, Minneapolis Star Tribune [78]
Lyle Spencer, MLB.com [28]
Barry Stanton, ESPN
Jayson Stark, ESPN [34]
Kit Stier, The Journal News [79]
Larry Stone, Seattle Times [80]
Joe Strauss, St. Louis Post-Dispatch [47]
Jim Street, MLB.com [28]
Paul Sullivan, Chicago Tribune [64]
T.R. Sullivan, MLB.com [28]
Eli Tash, CF Productions
Howard Ulman, The Associated Press
Dave van Dyck, Chicago Tribune [64]
Juan Vene, VIP Wire [41]
Tom Verducci, Sports Illustrated [81]
Mark Zuckerman, Nats Insider [14]
By Tim Baffoe-
(CBS) “Preserving History. Honoring Excellence. Connecting Generations.” That’s the motto of the Baseball Hall of Fame, per its website at least.
The first part? Yeah, okay, fine.
The third part? Whatever. Most of today’s players don’t know who Honus Wagner, John McGraw, or Cool Papa Bell were. It pretends to sound nice, I guess.
The middle part? A hot sack of garbage. “Honoring preferential treatment,” maybe. “Honoring bias,” surely. I would even buy “Honoring guys worthy of joining a snooty country club of no substantive importance.”
Voting for the Hall of Fame is controversial every year, and every year we reach the crossroads of who should be in and who should not be, and rarely do two people ever agree on an exact list, past, present, or future. Should Barry Larkin be in? Probably, I guess. I don’t really care, and I will no longer care who gets in ever again.
And that is because of who does the voting.
It used to be some sort of self-affirmation to see a guy you used to root for get voted in or to have what seemed like a prestigious organization agree with your assessment of which athletes were gods and which were merely demigods. “Hey, those smart people with votes agree with me!” Not much different than the reason sort of intelligent, soft-egoed people like me watch Jeopardy! We like it when our own intelligence or opinion is (sort of) given credence, even if it produces nothing of value (note: I will “Before and After” the hell out of you come 3:30 each weekday).
I have realized of late that I don’t really care if those smart people—the Baseball Writers Association of America in particular—agree with me anymore, mostly because I’ve realized those people aren’t all that smart to begin with. They tend to be pompous sadists who get aroused with the power of affecting the emotions and lives of others. They find themselves largely infallible, and how dare you question the judgment of people who spend most of their lives eating fast food in hotel rooms and smelling Derek Jeter’s hair when he’s not looking.
Recently the BBWAA’s credibility for determining who is worthy and who is not was shot to all hell when it refused to take back the J.G. Taylor Spink Award that was given to Bill Conlin whose relatives have come out and said he molested them as children (and while Conlin has not yet been found guilty of any accusations, this seems to be a pretty open and shut case). “Bill Conlin has been a member in good standing of the BBWAA since 1966,” said the BBWAA. “The allegations have no bearing on his winning the 2011 J.G. Taylor Spink Award, which was in recognition of his notable career as a baseball writer.” Excellence honored.
So the BBWAA’s motto is “Commit Sex Crimes Against Children, Just Be Sure To Write Well.” Sad as it is, I expected such a group to protect one of its own. Again, they don’t admit mistakes. I wonder if the Veterans Committee vote Conlin gets now can be cast from a rape corner in a prison.
Then came time for members of the BBWAA to cast their votes for 2012 enshrinement. Sunday night I stumbled across a tweet from a friend saying that ESPN’s Pedro Gomez had cast a vote for Bill Mueller. “I voted for who I believe should be in,” Gomez tweeted Sunday night, presumably after getting feedback on his ballot.
Gomez believes .291, 85 homers, and 493 RBI should be in the Hall of Fame. Swirl that around your palate for a minute.
Or does he? He also tweeted regarding the Mueller vote, “Explanation: It’s a ‘favored son’ vote, given to player who will not make it to Year 2 as an honor to what he represented. No harm.” So Gomez does not believe Mueller is Hall of Fame worthy but worthy of a pity vote that could have gone to a more deserving player?
I really hope that brought a tear to Mueller’s eye, San Pedro, because it certainly brought a kick to the junk of those who believe those votes represent the best in the game and not just the good guys who played it. A wasted vote, no? “Doubt Mueller feels that way,” Gomez tweeted. “I don’t.” Edgar Martinez and Tim Raines must have really hurt Gomez’s feelings at some point. Excellence honored.
I give Gomez credit at least for engaging me in debate, which he did not have to do, and I’m sure many of his peers wouldn’t. He did mock me (I think) in tweeting me, “Then you shouldn’t use your vote the way I do” and “You d [sic] with your ballot what you want. I’ll do with mine what I want.” At least I certainly hope he doesn’t think I have a Hall of Fame vote. But still, debate is healthy, and I thank him for it.
I thank him even more for solidifying my theory that his organization is a farce, as is its mean, drunk uncle, The Veterans Committee, even with its makeover. Thanks to the three others who voted for Mueller, the six who dry humped for Vinny Castilla, and one of Eric Young’s relatives. Excellent favored sons honored.
What the writers think means nothing, and they’ve proven that bit by bit over the years with inclusions and exclusions that make one scratch his or her head and that I won’t debate here because I just no longer care. The saddest part is that they do have an effect on former players’ lives emotionally and financially. I was turned off on Ron Santo’s personality long ago, but it was a travesty what they did to that man year in and year out. There will be more Santos to play ant to the BBWAA and Veterans Committee’s magnifying glass in the sun, and that sucks. Dead excellence honored.
At least now I know that just like other bullies and cliquey holier-than-thous that thrive off hiding behind excellence and honor while defecating on others, there is nothing excellent or honorable about them.
The 2012 Current Golden Era Veterans committee consists of Hall of Famers Hank Aaron, Pat Gillick, Al Kaline, Ralph Kiner, Tommy Lasorda, Juan Marichal, Brooks Robinson, and Billy Williams. Major league executives Paul Beeston (Toronto Blue Jays), Bill DeWitt (St. Louis Cardinals), Roland Hemond, (Arizona Diamondbacks), Gene Michael (New York Yankees), and Al Rosen (retired) were also part of the committee. Three media members Dick Kaegel, Jack O'Connell and Dave Van Dyck rounded up the group of 16. Hall of fame Chairman of the board Jane Forbes Clark served as the non voting chairman of the committee.
I still think it should be only present living HOF members who get to vote. 573 BBWAA writers get to vote. Try finding a list of them. It Does'nt exist because they dont want to deal with having to explain there idiotic voting.
Here is a partial list. Most of Fans are lucky if we know 20-30 names just on this incomplete list. Also Interstign commentary from one of thier own.
Peter Abraham, Boston Globe [10]
J.A. Adande, ESPN.com, formerly The Los Angeles Times [20]
Dave Albee, Marin Independent Journal [21]
Maury Allen, New York Post, retired [22]
Dom Amore, The Hartford Courant [23]
Mel Antonen, USA Today [24]
Phil Arvia, SouthtownStar [25]
Geoff Baker, Seattle Times [26]
Bill Ballou, Telegram & Gazette of Worcester [27]
Mike Bauman, MLB.com [28]
Ira Berkow, The New York Times [29]
Jeff Blair, Toronto Globe and Mail
Barry Bloom, MLB.com [28]
Ron Blum, Associated Press [30]
Paul Bodi, MLB.com [28]
Hal Bodley, USA Today [30]
Thomas Boswell, Washington Post [17] (non-voting member)
Pat Borzi, New York Times (non-voting member)
Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette [31]
Mark Bradley, Atlanta Journal-Constitution [32]
Steve Buckley, Boston Herald
Don Burke, Newark Star-Ledger [33]
Jim Caple, ESPN [34]
Pat Caputo, Oakland Press
Marc Carig, New Jersey Star Ledger]]
Will Carroll, Baseball Prospectus[35]
Bill Center, The San Diego Union-Tribune [23]
Murray Chass, New York Times (non-voting member)
Gene Collier, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette [31]
Bill Conlin, Philadelphia Daily News [36]
Ron Cook, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette [31]
Jose Covarrubias, retired
Joe Cowley, Chicago Sun-Times [37]
Jerry Crasnick, ESPN[34]
Ken Davidoff, Newsday
Jose de Jesus Ortiz, Houston Chronicle[38]
Steve Dilbeck, Los Angeles Daily News[37]
Mike Dodd, USA Today [30]
Mike Downey, Chicago Tribune [39]
Rich Draper, MLB.com [28]
Mike Dyer, Long Island Press, retired
Gordon Edes, ESPN [40]
Bob Elliott, Toronto Sun [41]
John Erardi, Cincinnati Enquirer [37]
Mark Faller, The Arizona Republic [42]
Mark Feinsand, The Daily News [43]
John R. Finger, CSNPhilly.com[44]
Jeffrey Flanagan, The Kansas City Star [45]
Jeff Fletcher, Santa Rosa Press Democrat [28]
Sean Forman, Sports Reference LLC [46]
Gerry Fraley, Dallas Morning News [47]
Tom Gage, The Detroit News [23]
Peter Gammons, MLB Network [34]
Jim Gauger, Trenton Times, retired
Steven Gietschier, Sporting News, retired
Rich Glanzer, Lynbrook Times Gazette
Ben Goessling, MASN [48]
Steven Goldman, Baseball Prospectus
Pedro Gomez, ESPN [49]
Mark Gonzalez, Chicago Tribune [23]
Jerry Green, The Detroit News [50]
Ken Gurnick, MLB.com [28]
Tony Grossi, The Plain Dealer [51]
Paul Hagen, Philadelphia Daily News [52]
Jim Hawkins, The Oakland Press,[23]
Joe Henderson, Tampa Tribune,[41]
Lynn Henning, The Detroit News [53]
Jon Heyman, Sports Illustrated [54]
Myron Holtzman, St. Louis Globe-Democrat, retired
Jeff Horrigan, Boston Herald [55]
Paul Hoynes, The Plain Dealer [51]
Rick Hummel, St. Louis Post-Dispatch [47]
Bob Hunter, Columbus Dispatch [56]
Jay Jaffe, Baseball Prospectus
Bruce Jenkins, San Francisco Chronicle [57]
Chuck Johnson, USA Today [30]
Richard Justice, Houston Chronicle [4]
Dick Kaegel, MLB.com [28]
Christina Kahrl, Baseball Prospectus [35]
Ann Killion, San Jose Mercury News [58]
Bob Klapisch, ESPN [34]
Mike Klis, Denver Post [41]
Gwen Knapp, San Francisco Chronicle [59]
Michael Knisley, ESPN [34]
Dejan Kovacevic, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette [31]
Steve Krasner, Providence Journal [37]
Doug Krikorian, Long Beach Press-Telegram,[41]
Tim Kurkjian, ESPN [34]
Paul Ladewski, SouthtownStar [60]
Scott Lauber, Wilmington News Journal [61]
Keith Law, ESPN [62]
Mike Lefkow, Contra Costa Times [63]
Joseph Liao, World Journal [11]
[Ben Lindbergh]], Baseball Prospectus
Bill Livingston, The Plain Dealer [51]
Seth Livingstone, USA Today [30]
John Lowe, Detroit Free Press
Bill Madden, New York Daily News [24]
Tony Massarotti, Boston Globe [40]
Sean McAdam, CSNNE [34]
Hal McCoy, Dayton Daily News [64]
Dan McGrath, Chicago Tribune [41]
Stan McNeal, Sporting News [12]
Paul Meyer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette [31]
Bernie Miklasz, St. Louis Post-Dispatch [47]
Scott Miller, CBS Sportsline [30]
Larry Milson, The Globe and Mail [65]
Jim Molony, MLB.com [28]
Ernest Moreno, MLB.com [28]
Carrie Muskat, MLB.com [28]
Rob Neyer, ESPN [62]
Bob Nightengale, USA Today [30]
Marty Noble, MLB.com [28]
Jack O'Connell, Hartford Courant [66]
Dave O'Hara, retired [23]
Buster Olney, ESPN [34]
Woody Paige, The Denver Post [67]
Rob Parker, The Detroit News[68]
Jeff Peek, Traverse City Record Eagle [69]
John Perrotto, Beaver County Times [37]
Mike Peticca, The Plain Dealer [51]
Bill Plaschke, Los Angeles Times [41] (non-voting member)
Joe Posnanski, The Kansas City Star [70]
Ryan Pyner, MLB.com
Luis E. Rangel, El Nuevo Herald [13]
Ray Ratto, San Francisco Chronicle
Tracy Ringolsby, Rocky Mountain News [71]
Phil Rogers, ESPN [34]
John Romano, St. Petersburg Times
Bob Rosen, Elias Sports Bureau [23]
Ken Rosenthal, Fox Sports [72]
Roger Rubin, New York Daily News[73]
Jim Salisbury, CSNPhilly.com, formerly The Philadelphia Inquirer [74]
Peter Schmuck, The Baltimore Sun (non-voting member); elected President of the BBWAA in 2005.
Alan Schwarz, Baseball America [52]
Chaz Scoggins, The Sun of Lowell [75]
Dan Shaughnessy, The Boston Globe [24]
Bud Shaw, The Plain Dealer [51]
John Shea, San Francisco Chronicle [30]
Joel Sherman, New York Post
Dave Skretta, The Associated Press
Claire Smith, ESPN[76]
Bob Smizik, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette [77]
Jim Souhan, Minneapolis Star Tribune [78]
Lyle Spencer, MLB.com [28]
Barry Stanton, ESPN
Jayson Stark, ESPN [34]
Kit Stier, The Journal News [79]
Larry Stone, Seattle Times [80]
Joe Strauss, St. Louis Post-Dispatch [47]
Jim Street, MLB.com [28]
Paul Sullivan, Chicago Tribune [64]
T.R. Sullivan, MLB.com [28]
Eli Tash, CF Productions
Howard Ulman, The Associated Press
Dave van Dyck, Chicago Tribune [64]
Juan Vene, VIP Wire [41]
Tom Verducci, Sports Illustrated [81]
Mark Zuckerman, Nats Insider [14]
By Tim Baffoe-
(CBS) “Preserving History. Honoring Excellence. Connecting Generations.” That’s the motto of the Baseball Hall of Fame, per its website at least.
The first part? Yeah, okay, fine.
The third part? Whatever. Most of today’s players don’t know who Honus Wagner, John McGraw, or Cool Papa Bell were. It pretends to sound nice, I guess.
The middle part? A hot sack of garbage. “Honoring preferential treatment,” maybe. “Honoring bias,” surely. I would even buy “Honoring guys worthy of joining a snooty country club of no substantive importance.”
Voting for the Hall of Fame is controversial every year, and every year we reach the crossroads of who should be in and who should not be, and rarely do two people ever agree on an exact list, past, present, or future. Should Barry Larkin be in? Probably, I guess. I don’t really care, and I will no longer care who gets in ever again.
And that is because of who does the voting.
It used to be some sort of self-affirmation to see a guy you used to root for get voted in or to have what seemed like a prestigious organization agree with your assessment of which athletes were gods and which were merely demigods. “Hey, those smart people with votes agree with me!” Not much different than the reason sort of intelligent, soft-egoed people like me watch Jeopardy! We like it when our own intelligence or opinion is (sort of) given credence, even if it produces nothing of value (note: I will “Before and After” the hell out of you come 3:30 each weekday).
I have realized of late that I don’t really care if those smart people—the Baseball Writers Association of America in particular—agree with me anymore, mostly because I’ve realized those people aren’t all that smart to begin with. They tend to be pompous sadists who get aroused with the power of affecting the emotions and lives of others. They find themselves largely infallible, and how dare you question the judgment of people who spend most of their lives eating fast food in hotel rooms and smelling Derek Jeter’s hair when he’s not looking.
Recently the BBWAA’s credibility for determining who is worthy and who is not was shot to all hell when it refused to take back the J.G. Taylor Spink Award that was given to Bill Conlin whose relatives have come out and said he molested them as children (and while Conlin has not yet been found guilty of any accusations, this seems to be a pretty open and shut case). “Bill Conlin has been a member in good standing of the BBWAA since 1966,” said the BBWAA. “The allegations have no bearing on his winning the 2011 J.G. Taylor Spink Award, which was in recognition of his notable career as a baseball writer.” Excellence honored.
So the BBWAA’s motto is “Commit Sex Crimes Against Children, Just Be Sure To Write Well.” Sad as it is, I expected such a group to protect one of its own. Again, they don’t admit mistakes. I wonder if the Veterans Committee vote Conlin gets now can be cast from a rape corner in a prison.
Then came time for members of the BBWAA to cast their votes for 2012 enshrinement. Sunday night I stumbled across a tweet from a friend saying that ESPN’s Pedro Gomez had cast a vote for Bill Mueller. “I voted for who I believe should be in,” Gomez tweeted Sunday night, presumably after getting feedback on his ballot.
Gomez believes .291, 85 homers, and 493 RBI should be in the Hall of Fame. Swirl that around your palate for a minute.
Or does he? He also tweeted regarding the Mueller vote, “Explanation: It’s a ‘favored son’ vote, given to player who will not make it to Year 2 as an honor to what he represented. No harm.” So Gomez does not believe Mueller is Hall of Fame worthy but worthy of a pity vote that could have gone to a more deserving player?
I really hope that brought a tear to Mueller’s eye, San Pedro, because it certainly brought a kick to the junk of those who believe those votes represent the best in the game and not just the good guys who played it. A wasted vote, no? “Doubt Mueller feels that way,” Gomez tweeted. “I don’t.” Edgar Martinez and Tim Raines must have really hurt Gomez’s feelings at some point. Excellence honored.
I give Gomez credit at least for engaging me in debate, which he did not have to do, and I’m sure many of his peers wouldn’t. He did mock me (I think) in tweeting me, “Then you shouldn’t use your vote the way I do” and “You d [sic] with your ballot what you want. I’ll do with mine what I want.” At least I certainly hope he doesn’t think I have a Hall of Fame vote. But still, debate is healthy, and I thank him for it.
I thank him even more for solidifying my theory that his organization is a farce, as is its mean, drunk uncle, The Veterans Committee, even with its makeover. Thanks to the three others who voted for Mueller, the six who dry humped for Vinny Castilla, and one of Eric Young’s relatives. Excellent favored sons honored.
What the writers think means nothing, and they’ve proven that bit by bit over the years with inclusions and exclusions that make one scratch his or her head and that I won’t debate here because I just no longer care. The saddest part is that they do have an effect on former players’ lives emotionally and financially. I was turned off on Ron Santo’s personality long ago, but it was a travesty what they did to that man year in and year out. There will be more Santos to play ant to the BBWAA and Veterans Committee’s magnifying glass in the sun, and that sucks. Dead excellence honored.
At least now I know that just like other bullies and cliquey holier-than-thous that thrive off hiding behind excellence and honor while defecating on others, there is nothing excellent or honorable about them.