Stock Market

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:19 am

The stock market is mirroring my fantasy team. Four days of gloom, one day of hope, four days of gloom, one day of hope, and repeat.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:47 pm

i'm wondering when the honest citizens of this country are gonna get our bailouts!!! we follow the rules and live within our means and now we (and our children) get DUMPED on!

i guess in this country the crooks, liars, cheats and people who don't know how to run a business get the bailouts.

Yes, I'm Gordon Gekko, and I approve this message.

[ November 14, 2008, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:52 pm

capitalism has bit the dust.

personal accountability bit the dust a few years ago and now look at where we are.

as each day passes, i really believe there are more and more of two types of people in this world...

1. Crooks

2. Dummies

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:10 pm

Your observations are on the money Mr. Gekko, it is sickening.

I held out some hope for Obama in spite of his liberal affiliation as I think he has more integrity and intelligence than the average politician, but that hope is fleeting as he sides with Fancy Pelosi to take money from you and me and redistribute it to failed auto executives who whine to Congress that they need $50 billion because they are pathetically incompetent and have been decades.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:33 pm

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Your observations are on the money Mr. Gekko, it is sickening.

I held out some hope for Obama in spite of his liberal affiliation as I think he has more integrity and intelligence than the average politician, but that hope is fleeting as he sides with Fancy Pelosi to take money from you and me and redistribute it to failed auto executives who whine to Congress that they need $50 billion because they are pathetically incompetent and have been decades. I agree with you guys for the most part. Giving a dime to automakers is a waste of money. I know we need it for their employees, but they will be the cat at the door asking for more when they're in trouble again in a couple years. There needs to be a radical approach, like, you can have *twice* as much as you want but you will cut executive salaries by x percent and you will meet this list of standards by which America will create the most efficient, longest-lasting cars in the world.

Maybe I am oversimplifying, I'm no expert, but the only way the money won't just push the problem back is if you create conditions for real change that go along wit it.

It also says in my manifesto that there has been socialism for the crooks for a long time. Ironically, though, there are crooks and dummies in fantasy baseball and we're okay with that!

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:03 pm

Originally posted by bjoak:

Ironically, though, there are crooks and dummies in fantasy baseball and we're okay with that! care to name drop?

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:16 pm

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Your observations are on the money Mr. Gekko, it is sickening.

I held out some hope for Obama in spite of his liberal affiliation as I think he has more integrity and intelligence than the average politician, but that hope is fleeting as he sides with Fancy Pelosi to take money from you and me and redistribute it to failed auto executives who whine to Congress that they need $50 billion because they are pathetically incompetent and have been decades. the country needs a revolution. business and politics as usual cannot be the norm anymore. LOOK WHERE IT HAS GOTTEN US!

they make us believe that if we don't bail EVERYONE out (except the honest people of the world), that everything will collapse.

i don't know if that is true or not, but I do know that when companies are bailed out, it sets a precedent for companies to get bailed out in the future. LOOK AT EVERYONE WHO IS IN LINE NOW TO GET A BAILOUT. EVEN CITIES ARE ASKING FOR MONEY!!!!

i believe the buck has to stop somewhere and we let the system crash if it must. ACCOUNTABILITY has to be restored or mark my words we will be bailing out companies in the future and the debt this nation accumulates will sink this nation. Any guesses on what year this country will have a national debt of over 100 trillion dollars? TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. I GOTTA GO B4 I VOMIT

just remember "Your principles count for nothing unless you rely on and use them during your darkest hour"

[ November 14, 2008, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:01 am

There is absolutely no difference between a politician and a CEO. As long as that is the truth, nothing will change. Even though we are a free country, with our political system, as it is, we the people, are powerless against the tyranny and greed that pervades the political and business worlds.

A revolution is needed. But banding people together for an effort like that would probably be futile. Changes in our Constitution are needed. Shorter terms for powerful offices. Limiting monies for campaigns. Eliminating lobbyists. All bills being specific pertaining to one item with no pork would all be good starts.

I should have started this thread in the non-baseball section, I didn't know how it would evolve. So from a fantasy sense, the scary thing is that if we were to start a fantasy league using political figures, there are no old veterans, no rookies, no rising stars that I would be comfortable drafting. Democrat or republican, it doesen't matter, they have all conglomerated to powerful figures of our choosing, who are only trying to further their means or career.

In effect, each big business is run like our country. CEO's and top execs running amuck and for the most part, not being held accountable for running a company into the ground. Its at this level that the revolution should start. Boards should start firing CEO's for unproductive work. No golden parachutes, just a swift kick in the ass while going out the door. Accountability is key. No bonuses unless it is profit driven. Hire a CEO at six figures, any other monies made will be earned because of good earnings and anything benefitting the company. These bonuses should also be given to EVERY employee with all emplyees receiving the same percentage based on their wage.

Thanks, and I'll climb down from the soapbox.

Again, apologies for not putting this under the non-baseball subject.

[ November 15, 2008, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:59 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

There is absolutely no difference between a politician and a CEO. A) There are a lot of good CEOs Dough. Competent, fair, principled. They also don't require nor demand huge salaries and bonuses because they're not in it for that. This is a lesson that should've been learned many times over by boards and executive search firms, but they still don't get it.

B) There also are many politicians masquerading as CEOs. These are the guys that are massively overpaid because they spend their whole day scheming on how they can accumulate more power and wealth. They also do nothing for their own businesses other than learn enough about it to be capable of sounding intelligent to the masses.

The #1 thing that makes me cringe when CEO pay comes up are compensation committees and compensation consultants. If you hear any CEO justifying his pay on the basis of one of the above, you know he is nothing more than a politician.

[ November 15, 2008, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:27 am

You're in the business world, KJ, what changed as far as CEO's go? It used to be that CEO's were hard working people, either bred from the same company or recruited from another that had a good work ethic and ideas for a company to further itself. Now, it seems they are more like figureheads or the Press Secretary of their company.

Did the salaries and job titles change with Michael Eisner and others of his time?

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:40 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

You're in the business world, KJ, what changed as far as CEO's go? It used to be that CEO's were hard working people, either bred from the same company or recruited from another that had a good work ethic and ideas for a company to further itself. Now, it seems they are more like figureheads or the Press Secretary of their company.

Did the salaries and job titles change with Michael Eisner and others of his time? As long as I've been around (I don't think as long as you), there have been those two types I described above. I've met many of both and it doesn't take too long to figure out who is who in most cases.

The only difference I see is that salaries have become even more outrageous, in particular for those who least deserve it. Probably a result of the "rise" of compensation consultants who give nonsensical justification to ridiculous salaries and bonuses in return for being paid consulting fees by the same CEOs whom they are judging.

headhunters · Post by **headhunters** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:50 am

when government "tells" a company what to make- that is socialism. more regualtion will not help- because " more regulation" is a misnomer. it really means more regulators. so lets start with this- because this is crucial. the government ( congress) had plenty of regualors working on fanny and freddy mac. they did not do their jobs- probably because they are all part of the corrupt thing we call washington. also- very, very, very important to know- congess TOLD freddie may and mac to lend to people that had no $ down, no $ and were bidding up propery to unrealistically sustainable prices. our current government model is the california model- which does not work. the reason calfornia has done well for a long period of time is because it had attractive land, attractive schools etc- if you look at california as a pile of $- it just was a bigger pile and it took longer to run through the cash. go to pimco.com and read gross in november. he is a very smart guy- and his partner is very smart. he can articulate this much better than me.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:25 am

Originally posted by headhunters:

when government "tells" a company what to make- that is socialism. Is this in response to me? Any time a loan is given, or in this case a grant, there are expectations that go with it. If you get a college grant, you have to actually go to college on the money. If you get a loan for a business, you actually spend it on that business. I am not suggesting government force restrictions on anyone; I am suggesting that if they are going to give away money, that they place restrictions on what that money can be used for. The companies, or in this case the automakers, have the right to take it or leave it, but that is the very way America works--when you hand over money, it is for something specific. These conditions exist in every transaction when you think about it. I give you money for a product; you have to hand the product over to me. There always are and always should be expectations in business.

On a different note and at the risk of ruining my argument that I was not advocating socialism--socialism is just a word, not necessarily a bad one. It is kind of sad that over the past month or two, any time we disagree with something, we shout, 'Socialism!' It is not an argument of why something is bad in and of itself.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:36 am

Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:

i'm wondering when the honest citizens of this country are gonna get our bailouts!!! we follow the rules and live within our means and now we (and our children) get DUMPED on!

i guess in this country the crooks, liars, cheats and people who don't know how to run a business get the bailouts.

Yes, I'm Gordon Gekko, and I approve this message. Mark I'm afraid your right about those that lived within their means will pay the price. The way I see it we will have a period of time when we have deflation. This will benefit those that have saved and have cash. Not that it will be a good time. It will be horrible. Many losing their jobs. Businesses going under. Very 1930's like. The likely outcome this time will be the fed throwing more and more cash at the problem till it's dead. Not sure how long this will take. (meanwhile the pols will do their best to make things worse, same as the 30's they will erect trade barriers, the real cause of the great depression and maybe raise taxes instead of stimulative lower taxes). Then after Ben gets his helicopters running over time and they get their buckets and fire hoses applying as much cash as possible to finally get enough cash into the system to delever/bailout everybody you'll get the opposite. Deflation will turn to inflation. Hyper inflation like Brazil in the 1990's or Zimbabwe now. prices change intra day. the savers and those with cash will be crushed as they see their cash turn worthless. That's the answer to how we get out of this and who will pay all these bills. Those that lived beyond their means and are underwater with debt, and that includes Uncle Sam, will be rewarded as they too get bailed out, by inflation, making their debts worthless. Could be wrong. Not Nostrodamus. Just how I see the likely out come of where this is going.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:49 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

There is absolutely no difference between a politician and a CEO. A) There are a lot of good CEOs Dough. Competent, fair, principled. They also don't require nor demand huge salaries and bonuses because they're not in it for that. This is a lesson that should've been learned many times over by boards and executive search firms, but they still don't get it.

B) There also are many politicians masquerading as CEOs. These are the guys that are massively overpaid because they spend their whole day scheming on how they can accumulate more power and wealth. They also do nothing for their own businesses other than learn enough about it to be capable of sounding intelligent to the masses.

The #1 thing that makes me cringe when CEO pay comes up are compensation committees and compensation consultants. If you hear any CEO justifying his pay on the basis of one of the above, you know he is nothing more than a politician. [/QUOTE]I agree here too. There are many good ceo's, but for those that aren't, why do you get to walk away with $100 million for getting fired. I'm a pure died in the wool capitalist, but somethings not right there. There has to be a better way of appointing the boards that make this stuff up. There is no choice. You vote to elect them or withhold your vote in which case they get elected anyway. In way to many cases it's a good old boys club, golfing buddies and in 1 case I'm aware of it's college buddies on the board deciding what their fraternity brothers will make. There has to be a better way of getting better board members that can be more responsive to the owners/shareholders.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:56 am

Originally posted by bjoak:

quote:Originally posted by headhunters:

when government "tells" a company what to make- that is socialism. Is this in response to me? Any time a loan is given, or in this case a grant, there are expectations that go with it. If you get a college grant, you have to actually go to college on the money. If you get a loan for a business, you actually spend it on that business. I am not suggesting government force restrictions on anyone; I am suggesting that if they are going to give away money, that they place restrictions on what that money can be used for. The companies, or in this case the automakers, have the right to take it or leave it, but that is the very way America works--when you hand over money, it is for something specific. These conditions exist in every transaction when you think about it. I give you money for a product; you have to hand the product over to me. There always are and always should be expectations in business.

On a different note and at the risk of ruining my argument that I was not advocating socialism--socialism is just a word, not necessarily a bad one. It is kind of sad that over the past month or two, any time we disagree with something, we shout, 'Socialism!' It is not an argument of why something is bad in and of itself. [/QUOTE]Could be wrong Brian, but I don't think Mike had you in mind. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but my take was something on the order of if we give the auto guys money they have to do what we want and Obama has pretty much said bailout begets "green cars". while I have nothing against some sort of more fuel efficient or less polluting cars, once you get the fed involved in business decisions you've gone down a road that shouldn't have been traveled. The U.S. auto companies are more than capable of mismanaging with out the feds help. as for what should happen to them I have no idea. They deserve to go out of business, but the consiquences maybe too great. we lose either way.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:58 am

I've probably said too much as usual and will now crawl back into my hole. I just couldn't resist.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:58 am

Originally posted by Vander:

In way to many cases it's a good old boys club, golfing buddies and in 1 case I'm aware of it's college buddies on the board deciding what their fraternity brothers will make. There has to be a better way of getting better board members that can be more responsive to the owners/shareholders. And for the Fed, it is the Goldman Sachs fraternity.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:25 am

The U.S. auto companies are more than capable of mismanaging with out the feds help.Well, I am fond of saying that progressive and proactive beat regressive and reactive every time. Giving them no strings attached money is just a license to go back to being regressive and then we are in the same situation in a couple more years. Something radical needs to happen and they won't do that on their own, *especially* if they get their money. So there have to be conditions for them to get their money, and, yes, the big, bad government will have to set them up because maybe it won't work, but a bailout followed by business as usual definitely won't work. If I knew that American car companies were being held accountable and not making crap, I might actually consider not buying a Toyota next time.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:34 am

anyone know what the "martial law" comment is about????????????? it's at the 1:18 mark in the video.

Martial Law in America????

Added: September 28, 2008

[ November 15, 2008, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:54 am

Bailout Fear Mongering and "martial law" stated again!!!

Fear Mongering about Bailout!!

Added: October 03, 2008

[ November 15, 2008, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:01 pm

MTV Martial Law Warnings

Unbelievable MTV Commercials???

Added: July 22, 2008

[ November 15, 2008, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:10 pm

Duke - is denninger accurate in what he says about governments printing money to pay their debts?

The Potential End Of America's Government

Added: September 17, 2008

[ November 15, 2008, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:38 pm

Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:

Duke - is denninger accurate in what he says about governments printing money to pay their debts?

The Potential End Of America's Government

Added: September 17, 2008 Kind of a drama queen, but that is what we currently are doing - increasing the money supply to offset deflationary forces.

At some point, this weakens the dollar and results in higher interest rates and inflation. In the meantime, offsetting forces are keeping those things in check. I don't think comparing the US to Zimbabwe is a good indication of things to come, however.

[ November 15, 2008, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:32 pm

Originally posted by bjoak:

quote:The U.S. auto companies are more than capable of mismanaging with out the feds help.Well, I am fond of saying that progressive and proactive beat regressive and reactive every time. Giving them no strings attached money is just a license to go back to being regressive and then we are in the same situation in a couple more years. Something radical needs to happen and they won't do that on their own, *especially* if they get their money. So there have to be conditions for them to get their money, and, yes, the big, bad government will have to set them up because maybe it won't work, but a bailout followed by business as usual definitely won't work. If I knew that American car companies were being held accountable and not making crap, I might actually consider not buying a Toyota next time. [/QUOTE]Well I'm not saying giving Detroit money is the answer. If fact I think it's not an ingenious idea. I do expect they'll waste it. Good money down the drain. It won't make the situation any better and does set a very bad example. As far as the auto's are concerned I don't have a good answer. I'll leave that to smarter people than I. I'm not expecting a better idea coming from Washington though. And yes I think Washington CAN actually do a worse job than the morons that have been in charge of GM over the last few decades. Just another one of my foolish beliefs.