Position Eligibility Update

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:53 am

Also, the issue is with games played LAST season, not how many games they will play this coming year.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:11 am

Greg explained this issue in today's chat. Daryle Ward has no position because he is an NL-player that was used 29 times as a pinch hitter, with 13 games at 1B and 11 at OF (with pinch hitter somehow being a position). If you guys can find any other examples of this, it would save a lot of headaches on draft day.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:04 am

KOQ: You forgot to mention that Ramon Castro pinch-hit 29 times last year. So he was a Utility player. He deserves to qualify at Utility only, not at catcher because when the Marlins felt comfortable enough he played 18 games there. If he was a catcher, he would have played 20 games there. He qualifies at Utility because that's what he was last year, a utility player.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:26 am

Are there any others besides Ramon Castro and Daryle Ward that we should be aware of? Honestly, I'm surprised no one else finds this somewhat alarming. Just so I have this straight, if pinch hitting appearances are greater than games played at a position, and the position appearances are less that 20, the player only qualifies at utility/DH/whatever. Is that right?

Has anyone else ever played by these rules?

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:40 am

How about an extreme example. Derek Jeter plays the first game of 2003 at SS, injures himself, and is out for the year. Miraculously, he comes back for the last week of the season, and pinch hits in the last two games of the year. Is Jeter only eligible to be drafted at utility for 2004?

Jon_Ashton · Post by **Jon_Ashton** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:49 am

Greg's not making these rulings up on the fly, I don't think.

I think everything he's saying is consistent with the original Rotisserie position eligibility rules that have been in existence since the original book came out back in 1984 or whenever.

I don't have the book in front of me, so I could be wrong, but I think Greg's rulings are totally straight-forward, and standard.

Jon_Ashton · Post by **Jon_Ashton** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:54 am

Your Jeter example:

Strange scenario, but possible. And, yes, in that scenario, it looks to me like if Jeter played 1 game at SS in an entire season and more at PH, he'd be only eligible at utility for the next season until he played 20 games at SS (or whatever other position).

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:08 pm

Perhaps part of the problem is that I have really only played in AL-only leagues, and thus not encountered true "utility" pinch hitters very often. However, I feel like I've entered some sort of alternate universe as far as this debate goes. Pinch hitter is not a position, not in baseball and, to my knowledge, not in rotisserie either. The "utility" players who don't play a lot at any position are assigned the position they at the most.

Greg has already conceded that a player like Bill Hall (MLW) played 18 games at 2B and 18 at SS, and thus qualifies at both positions. I can only assume that he did not pinch hit 19 times based on this logic.

When I get home, I'm going to check the original rulebook to see if I have been misinterpretting a rule for the past 18 years. I'll let you all know what I find out.

Jon_Ashton · Post by **Jon_Ashton** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:20 pm

I was hoping someone would volunteer to pull out the book. I hope that resolves this. If Greg's departing from long-standing rules, he can explain why, but I think his intention was to stick with long-standing tradition on this. Is there any mention of how PH appearances are classified? I don't specifically recall ever considering that in a league either, but seems to fall in the utility category to me, if a guy was a PH more than anything else.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:32 pm

Originally posted by King of Queens:

Honestly, I'm surprised no one else finds this somewhat alarming. I find it a bit disturbing. Honestly, do we need to count all the times a player has pinch hit in a season to determine his position?

[ March 10, 2004, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:46 pm

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

Bobby Hill, second base (3 games)

Isn't B.Hill considered a vet and should only be eligible at DH? In 2002, he played in 59 games and had 190AB.

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:15 pm

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

But in the Grieve case, Dyv, he's a DH on Draft Day and that's final. Greg - I'm going to raise your blood pressure here, but Grieve is in the NL this year and he can't possibly be a DH... lol

Point understood, though

I was using the 'fielding' stats from mlb.com and they don't list DH as a position played - I narrowed down my mind to what was in front of me instead of looking deeper.

I really don't intend to have Grieve on my team and I'm not related to him...hehe

Dyv

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:24 pm

In this example, yes.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:40 pm

OK, here it is. From the Official Constitution of Rotisserie League Baseball:

V. Position Eligibility

A player may be assignedto any position at which he appeared in 20 or more games in the preceding season. If a player did not appear in 20 games at a single position, he may be drafted only at the position at which he appeared most frequently. The 20 games/most games measure is used only to determine the position(s) at which a player may be drafted.

-------------------------------

I still have yet to hear a proper explanation of how pinch hitting stats can somehow take precedence over actual fielding positions played.

Ready to kill me yet, Greg?

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:31 pm

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

In this example, yes. I'm not sure who you were answering? Isn't B.Hill considered a vet and should only be eligible at DH? In 2002, he played in 59 games and had 190AB. Thanks.

[ March 10, 2004, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:42 pm

Here are some more in addition to Daryle Ward & Ramon Castro (and Bobby Hill). All have lost rookie eligibility:

Pat Borders, C

Alberto Castillo, C

Johnny Estrada, C

Corky Miller, C

Carlos Baerga, 1B

Greg Colbrunn, 1B

Herbert Perry, 1B

Brent Abernathy, 2B

Andy Fox, 2B

Ricky Gutierrez, CLE SS

Michael Cuddyer, MIN OF

So are all these players only eligible at DH? I tried finding the pinch hitting stats, but I couldn't locate them on the three sites I checked.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:49 pm

Well done Queen!

Plymouth · Post by **Plymouth** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:27 pm

Much ado about nothing, don't you guys have anything better to worry about? The pressure getting to you? By the way Dyv, who the hell is Ben Mauer? I have heard of Jake and Joe but who is Ben?

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:33 pm

It actually does matter, particularly at catcher--have you looked at the top overall 30 catchers, Plymouth? The pickings get pretty slim in a hurry, especially if you take Castro and Estrada and make them UT/DH/PH eligible-only.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:34 pm

Originally posted by Plymouth:

Much ado about nothing, don't you guys have anything better to worry about? The pressure getting to you? By the way Dyv, who the hell is Ben Mauer? I have heard of Jake and Joe but who is Ben? I thought I smelled dead money!

Plymouth · Post by **Plymouth** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:39 pm

Well Gordie, I wasn't talking to you but you are right, I smell dead money too, smells like rotting lizard to me.

Cellar Dwellers · Post by **Cellar Dwellers** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:50 pm

King of Queens, I was also surprised to see that most games at a position when 20 is not applicable, is not the rule we are using. I've always played by these rules:

V. Position Eligibility

A player may be assigned to any position at which he appeared in 20 or more games in the preceding season. If a player did not appear in 20 games at a single position, he may be drafted only at the position at which he appeared most frequently. The 20 games/most games measure is used only to determine the position(s) at which a player may be drafted.

a · Post by a » Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:07 pm

Ok, I feel like adding something stupid and off the wall.....

Last year, I played ball (hardball), out of 18 games, I played 6 OF, 7 2b, 2 ss and 3 P. If I drafted myself, where would I be eligible to play???

Yes, those are true facts. (And I realize I will only accumulte stats if I make a major league team

)

viper · Post by **viper** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:39 am

I realize that we would all like to see more players qualified at the catcher position and more players qualified as middle infielders. Actually, any multi-positional player has some additional value. That said, I'm pretty sure that the positional eligibility is the same for every league. I seriously doubt that a player will be qualified at a position in NY and not so qualified in Vegas. This is not an easy call by Greg but he has made it. And lest we foreget, Greg is in charge of this championship. Let's live with it and proceed on to other matters. Every league has a few odd qualification standards. WCOFB has dropped the requirement to 15 games. ESPN has Edgar Martinez as a 1B. The only remaining issue on this subject should be concerning players not yet identifed to a position.

seefer · Post by **seefer** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:00 am

Greg, for a player to establish a new position this year, I am under the impression that there are 2 different rules for the NFBC draft and the Auction leagues. For example: JOSE REYES: for him to establish 2B eligibility in the NFBC he must play 20 games at 2B this yr. For him to establish eligibility at 2B in the NL Auction league he must play 5 games there this year. Is this right?