What Is The Latest On The Cutline Championship?

[Greg Ambrosius]

As you can tell by now, we've unveiled every NFBC contest for 2016 except one. We've talked about the NFBC Cutline Championship for 2+ years now and I promised this new game with a "best ball" format for 2016, but as you can see there's no Contest link yet, no announced prizes and no Registration link for it.

So what the hell is going on with the NFBC Cutline Championship?

Well, it's a good question. I was very excited to unveil a "best ball" baseball format this year because there's no question that people love to draft and they want an optimal scoring lineup game. To have 30-round drafts every night that can be done in less than 2 1/2 hours with easy management during the season seems like a winner. I think it has great potential, but I'll admit I was taken aback by the feedback to the proposed scoring format, which was the same one we used in the NFBC Post-Season Contest. We have held back the launch of this contest until we know for sure how we want to proceed with this contest and if we want to proceed with this contest.

Heck, it's not easy to roll out a contest with $200,000 in guaranteed prizes and be uncertain of its prospects. We're not trying to lose money on this new venture. I'm not looking for another Primetime situation. Our goal is to create draft nights every night for 3+ months and not just take away from the Draft Champions format for a new game that is like every other game we have here.

That being said, more than two years ago I reached out to KJ Duke to discuss this format and how we could make it work. There were roadblocks in baseball that are different from football because we needed a) quick nightly drafts, yet deep rosters; b) a scoring format that allowed for the computer to pick optimal scoring lineups; and c) a points style format to make that happen. We changed the rules several times, figuring out that we had to limit this to 10 teams, 30 rounds on Draft night and then working with IT to expand the rosters at later dates. Those additional needs made us hold off on this launch the past two years, but we'd like to do it this year.

We unveiled the scoring system for the NFBC Post-Season Contest this year using 5x5 Roto points and folks felt that a DFS-style scoring format was better suited to that contest. We went with that and it definitely made sense for a short season contest. Heck, I thought it went so well that I proposed the same scoring format for the Cutline Championship.

To be fair to KJ, I did not discuss with him going with this new DFS-style scoring format before unveiling the rules to the Cutline in November. And I'll take the blame for not having this conversation earlier with him and others. KJ and I talked on the phone yesterday and I certainly understand why people want a duplicate of our 5x5 Roto scoring using a points style format for those same 10 categories. I totally get it. They want this new contest as their draft prep for the big contests. I hear exactly why there is a strong push for THAT scoring system in this new contest.

But as I explained to KJ yesterday, that's really not our goal with the NFBC Cutline Championship. In fact, I think it's just transferring dollars from the DC to the Cutline. Now again, I could be totally wrong. Maybe with that scoring system both contests grow. People still like slow drafts with 50 rounds/750 players and they still like live drafts every night. Maybe we explode both formats if we change the scoring to 5x5 roto points and our audience digs it. But remember, only 300 players are being drafted in this Cutline format, so it's not really a deep primer for the live drafts. Still, I get it why some want this.

My goal with the Cutline was creating an entirely new contest that would appeal to NFBC owners and even new customers who are familiar with DFS and yet are uncomfortable entering our high-stakes 5x5 Roto. The thought was that this could be a great new entry-level contest for those who don't play in our 5x5 Roto contests. I felt that if we could get the scoring somewhat similar to our NFBC games that it would be an easy transition for our veterans, while welcoming in new players. After seeing Todd's scoring totals from 2015 using this DFS-style format, I thought we were onto something here. It was different than 5x5 rankings, but not outrageously different, so I liked it.

So here we are. The more I wait the fewer leagues we can host, which means the guaranteed prizes must come down. I was hoping to have this contest live in December, but now the best goal is after Jan. 1st. We can still have 3 solid months of Cutline drafts. My plan is to offer 7 pm ET and 9 or 10 pm ET drafts every single night. In football, we fill up a couple a night and maybe we could get on a roll like that here. But first we need to tackle the scoring format.

I'm creating this thread for open dialogue because I'm going to have to finalize this contest in the next week and launch it one way or another. I think I'm going to lower our guarantees and do a soft launch this year with the hope that we exceed expectations. Once we roll this out, we can always tweak things in later years, but a 'best ball", optimal scoring baseball contest has a lot of merit and I want us to be the first one to launch it. I'm looking for sound input to get this right and to grow this as an entry-level contest that also appeals to NFBC veterans.

Here is the proposed scoring for the NFBC Cutline Championship:
For Hitters
1B = 1 point
2B = 2 points
3B = 3 points
HR = 4 points
RBI = 1 point
R = 1 point
BB = 1 point
SB = 2 points
HBP = 1 point
Out (calculated as at bats - hits) = -.25pt

For Pitchers
W = 4 points
Save = 5 points
ER = -1 point
SO = 1 point
IP = 1 point; 0.34 point per 1/3rd inning*

*1 IP = 1.02 points (.34 + .34 + .34 = 1.02)

Here was KJ's proposed scoring (I think I have this right):
For Hitters
Home Run: 6 points
Stolen Base: 5 points
Hit: 4 points
Run: 2 points
RBI: 2 points
At-bat: minus 1 point

For Pitchers
Win: 6 points
Save: 6 points
Inning Pitched: 3 points
Strikeout: 1 point
Hit or Walk Allowed: minus 1 point
Earned Run Allowed: minus 2 points

Okay, I'm listening. The clock is ticking on this one. Be civil with your discussion and realize what the goal is with the Cutline. How do we appease everyone and grow this each and every year? Let's go.

[BK METS]

Just my opinion... for someone who will likely draft 30+ teams including live drafts.... Baseball is a different animal than football. In football, you can go into a different league with different scoring and adjust accordingly... Baseball is its own animal. I have seen different scoring formats offered from different contests and I have decided to stick with one. If I am drafting this many teams, I need to get into the flow of the drafts and know exactly what I am doing, whether its a $100 entry or a $5,000 entry.

That being said, if we are going to do a "best ball" format, the only way to do it is the points system. 5x5 is not possible. KJ's scoring mimics 5x5 scoring, about as close as you can get it. But, if you are really looking for the DFS crowd to join in the mix, then your proposed scoring system is the way to go.

If I am going to join 1 or 2 or 10 of these cutline leagues, I am going to join it using the same ranking lists that I work hard on, prior to the drafts. I want to support anything that the NFBC has to offer. I have for a long time. I don't like DFS scoring (and this comes from the guy who won the NFBC post season contest using this scoring). I believe KJ's scoring method is the best option and what will keep me involved in this format. Otherwise I will stick with DCs and OCs. That's not to say it isn't something that might succeed. Its just not for me right now.

[ToddZ]

Given that my feeling is tell me the system, I don't care, and sign me up....

It's a misnomer to refer to the second system as DFS-like.

It's POINTS-like. That is, it's pretty much the system used by all seasonal points leagues on places like ESPN, Yahoo and CBS.

Carry on...

[BK METS]

Given that my feeling is tell me the system, I don't care, and sign me up....

It's a misnomer to refer to the second system as DFS-like.

It's POINTS-like. That is, it's pretty much the system used by all seasonal points leagues on places like ESPN, Yahoo and CBS.

Carry on...

You are correct. And 12 team main event leagues are what is the "system" everywhere else, as well. But, does that mean it will be successful with the NFBC?

Lets face it... the majority of the signups for this and anything the NFBC has to offer, will be current customers. Yes, there is enormous appeal to get new signups and I am all for the NFBC growing to huge numbers. But, DFS players don't play DFS because of the scoring. They play because it is daily fantasy. ESPN and Yahoo players aren't coming here because of the scoring... they are coming here because they want to be challenged by the best fantasy players in the country. They will adjust to the scoring.

I think I have said my opinion and its just that. FWIW. Carry on....

[Rog]

I for one don't care what scoring system is used. I like the different formats and the challenges the different scoring system brings. I lost interest when we starting making it a faab animal again and adding and dropping the 30 players or so. I understand why it is needed but would rather draft 40 rounds and let it be. No matter what product you put out there I will try it. I just don't know how many I will try.

[Happenstance]

Adding to Todd's comment ,calling the proposed scoring "DFS scoring" is entirely fair when the two major DFS sites use different scoring systems themselves.

I have no way of confirming this, but I suspect that the population that this game is truly meant to attract - the person who has never played any NFBC event before (the Cutline is the NFBC's "gateway drug") - doesn't really care much about which scoring system is used, as long as it's easy to understand and calculate. You need to be able to scan the ticker on ESPN or the newspaper box score and quickly add up the points your player has earned. Both proposed systems seem equally easy.

One of the great marketing tools that the NFBC has is its ADP report. I love that during drafting season, any time news is report about a player on the SiriusXM fantasy channel, they also mention that player's ADP. If just a single ADP will be mentioned (and that's what I'd recommend. No need to say "Adam Jones' NFBC Cutline ADP is 54), then it probably makes sense to use a point system that puts a similar value on players.

[joshguy]

I for one don't care what scoring system is used. I like the different formats and the challenges the different scoring system brings. I lost interest when we starting making it a faab animal again and adding and dropping the 30 players or so. I understand why it is needed but would rather draft 40 rounds and let it be. No matter what product you put out there I will try it. I just don't know how many I will try.

This times a million. The FAAB is a time killer. If the aim of the contest is to get lots of entries from people, can you imagine having to do FAAB 4 times a year on 15 teams. Thats 60 FAABs at probably around an hour a pop. With 10 teams, bumping it to 40 rounds is still only the equivalent of a 27 RD 15 team draft. Even shorten the draft clock by 5 or 10 seconds to quicken the pace.

Your life would literally have to be put on hold the weeks leading up to FAAB. Ditch that and you would have a great contest!

[DOUGHBOYS]

I believe that with ANY new contest, FAAB should be one of the first considerations.
ONLY four FAAB periods, is like saying 'Only four proctology visits'.
I know that the thought is that there will be more strategy with faab.
Sometimes though, the time for meeting the needs of the strategy exceeds the time we have in a day.
Even in a fantasy day.
Who cares if it is compared to the DC game?
I don't.
What I do want is an enjoyable new game that won't take even more time away from the more costly games.
Lineups have been taken away, why not FAAB?
The concept on the table requires more of our time, even if it is in just four installments.

EDIT- We have more DC leagues that any other concept.
The reason is clear, EVERYBODY likes to draft. The DC concept is perfect in that we can draft to our hearts content, knowing that the FAAB monster will not bite us when the season begin.
I can see Cutlines sharing the same type of popularity.
Although they will be compared to DC Leagues in that that they are both DAFT (Draft and Forget) Leagues, they will have differences that will set them apart from DC leagues in that it would be
1. A fast draft
2. A ten team draft
3. Only 400 (40 rounds) or 500 (50 rounds) players would be drafted
4. Both having an advantage over DAMN (Draft and Manage) leagues

[Glenneration X]

I agree with the previous posters. FAAB is definitively my biggest concern while considering whether I'd be playing this particular game. In football, I dreaded the FAAB weeks for that Cutline contest, and that won't even approach the amount of work it will be for this baseball contest.

I want a quick easy inexpensive draft and forget it baseball contest, similar to the football DC's, and what the baseball DC's lack because of the need to set lineups.

No FAAB, no lineups, I'm in.

[DOUGHBOYS]

If NEEDNG a FAAB period, do just one during the All-Star break when we have nothing else to do.

[KJ Duke]

Although they will be compared to DC Leagues in that that they are both DAFT (Draft and Forget) Leagues, they will have differences that will set them apart from DC leagues in that it would be
1. A fast draft
2. A ten team draft
3. Only 400 (40 rounds) or 500 (50 rounds) players would be drafted
4. Both having an advantage over DAMN (Draft and Manage) leagues

Agreed, more draft rounds (the fun part) and less FAAB (the un-fun part) would make sense.
45 rounds (450 players, same as standard league draft), plus 1-2 FAAB?

[DOUGHBOYS]

Although they will be compared to DC Leagues in that that they are both DAFT (Draft and Forget) Leagues, they will have differences that will set them apart from DC leagues in that it would be
1. A fast draft
2. A ten team draft
3. Only 400 (40 rounds) or 500 (50 rounds) players would be drafted
4. Both having an advantage over DAMN (Draft and Manage) leagues

Agreed, more draft rounds (the fun part) and less FAAB (the un-fun part) would make sense.
45 rounds (450 players, same as standard league draft), plus 1-2 FAAB?

All Star break would be good for me and probably a lot of others.

[ToddZ]

For what it's worth, perhaps it's because what I do for a living, but I find FAAB a piece of cake compared to having to sift through 50 players once a week and maybe 25-30 another time to set DC lineups.

That said, reducing the FAAB periods could be a reasonable compromise.

[KJ Duke]

Although they will be compared to DC Leagues in that that they are both DAFT (Draft and Forget) Leagues, they will have differences that will set them apart from DC leagues in that it would be
1. A fast draft
2. A ten team draft
3. Only 400 (40 rounds) or 500 (50 rounds) players would be drafted
4. Both having an advantage over DAMN (Draft and Manage) leagues

Agreed, more draft rounds (the fun part) and less FAAB (the un-fun part) would make sense.
45 rounds (450 players, same as standard league draft), plus 1-2 FAAB?

All Star break would be good for me and probably a lot of others.

I think cutline playoffs start at ASB, so that would be too late to run FAAB. Initially I believe we discussed 3 FAABs after weeks 4, 8, and 12. Maybe do two after weeks 4 and 12? Or just one after week 8?

[DOUGHBOYS]

That faab period during the AS break would fortify all rosters before the playoff round, right?

[KJ Duke]

That faab period during the AS break would fortify all rosters before the playoff round, right?

But half the teams are already eliminated.

Also, see that Greg moved cutline FAAB from Sunday to Monday, which takes some of the burden off as well.

[ToddZ]

Would making FAAB a different night than Sunday help?

Um....never mind.

[DOUGHBOYS]

That faab period during the AS break would fortify all rosters before the playoff round, right?

But half the teams teams are already eliminated.

I would think that this would be a selling point. Not a detriment.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Half of those teams would never have to think about FAAB.
The other half is happy to be in it and would not mind using FAAB.

[KJ Duke]

That faab period during the AS break would fortify all rosters before the playoff round, right?

But half the teams teams are already eliminated.

I would think that this would be a selling point. Not a detriment.

It skews the bidding; suppose it could work anyway but you'd need to write extra code to keep the losers from bidding.

[Greg Ambrosius]

And now you see why there is no Cutline Championship. It's just too impossible to have deep rosters and quick drafts.

You all know from the DCs that 40 rounds isn't enough. And if you do that you're well into 3 1/2 hour drafts. You'll need more than 40 players to compete for the big money in the playoff rounds after the All-Star break and we all know that.

And you can't have the first FAAB at the All-Star break when half the teams are out of the playoffs.

Maybe it was a good idea for the wrong sport. I don't know. Or maybe the original idea works for only some in our audience. Creating an NFBC-style game for our veterans who don't like long drafts, who don't like FAAB, who don't like this format is a mistake. Maybe you've solved this for me already.

Thanks.

[Greg Ambrosius]

That faab period during the AS break would fortify all rosters before the playoff round, right?

But half the teams teams are already eliminated.

I would think that this would be a selling point. Not a detriment.

I would disagree.

[KJ Duke]

You all know from the DCs that 40 rounds isn't enough. And if you do that you're well into 3 1/2 hour drafts. You'll need more than 40 players to compete for the big money in the playoff rounds after the All-Star break and we all know that.

Greg, how long do the 15-team 30 round online drafts take? Cutlines with 45 rounds should be the same length.

[DOUGHBOYS]

And now you see why there is no Cutline Championship. It's just too impossible to have deep rosters and quick drafts.

You all know from the DCs that 40 rounds isn't enough. And if you do that you're well into 3 1/2 hour drafts. You'll need more than 40 players to compete for the big money in the playoff rounds after the All-Star break and we all know that.

And you can't have the first FAAB at the All-Star break when half the teams are out of the playoffs.

Maybe it was a good idea for the wrong sport. I don't know. Or maybe the original idea works for only some in our audience. Creating an NFBC-style game for our veterans who don't like long drafts, who don't like FAAB, who don't like this format is a mistake. Maybe you've solved this for me already.

Thanks.

Just half a day into comments you asked for and we get a 'give up' post from you, Greg?
You're better than that!
Every comment has been made with the thought of this contest succeeding.

[King of Queens]

Creating an NFBC-style game for our veterans who don't like long drafts, who don't like FAAB, who don't like this format is a mistake.

I'm confused by this statement. Wasn't the intention of this contest to appeal to the DFS crowd? If so, who cares what (no offense) KJ, Zola, Doughy or ANY of us have to say? Of course you're going to meet resistance from this group! You've given us oatmeal with raisins for the past 13 years -- and now you want to add nuts????