Jack Taylor

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:35 pm

Mundane name, I know. Sounds like a guy that owns a corner store or cuts your hair.

I was running through some baseball names from the past because, well, because it's what I do. I came across this cat named Jack Taylor. I found absolutely nothing about his personal life other than the standard born- died blah blah blah and his baseball statistics.

He did things in the early 1900's that made me wonder why his name didn't mean more in baseball lore. Media types from long ago did not have the fascination that we share with baseball numbers and records.

A friend of mine thinks that Joe DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak is the epitome of baseball records. I understand, it's a media blessing, easy to bring up when a current hitters hits in 25 straight games, an easy number to remember, a popular record holder on the most well known team, hell, he's even in a few songs!!

Well, Joe DiMaggio, my arse!

When it comes to comparing streaks with Jack Taylor, DiMaggio's record pales. Jack Taylor's glory years were between 1902 and 1906. I saw that! The roll of the eyes with the glazed 'Oh God, this happened over 100 years ago' look. Listen to this though...

In 1904 Jack Taylor started 39 games.

He completed 39 games!

Not impressed? There's more...

From 1902 to 1906, Jack Taylor threw in 202 consecutive games without being relieved. Without being relieved!

187 games were started, 15 were in relief.

He had six seasons with over 300 innings pitched. His E.R.A. in 1902 was 1.33 with a .967 WHIP.

In the end, Taylor ended up with 152 wins. That is three less tham Kevin Millwood. Not exactly Hall of Fame material.

But, darn it, here is a salute to you, Jack Taylor, more than 100 years later, let it be known that you are admired.

If somebody was a better innings eater than you, I haven't found him.

Rest in peace.

eddiejag · Post by **eddiejag** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:17 am

Talk about an iron man.I wonder why they abused pitchers back in the olden days.I mean he had to have a couple 7 run innings and didnt have that day but you have to finish the game is amazing.

Navel Lint · Post by **Navel Lint** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:46 am

Originally posted by eddiejag:

Talk about an iron man.I wonder why they abused pitchers back in the olden days.I mean he had to have a couple 7 run innings and didnt have that day but you have to finish the game is amazing. Looking at that 1904 St Louis Cardinal team; HOFer Kid Nichols was the pitcher/manager of the team. He started 35 games and completed 35 games. I guess it was the old ‘If I can do it, so can you’ routine.

As a whole, the pitchers on that team completed 146 of 154 games.

Final team record; 75-79 5th place in the 8 team NL

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:13 am

Amazing in how baseball has changed in that way. Many factors, of course.

Only 33 pitchers, last year, threw as many as TWO complete games. Only seven threw more than three.

Justin Verlander threw over 300 pitches more than his closest rival last year, but still only threw three complete games.

Nolan Ryan was the last pitcher who didn't give a rats ass about pitch count. When winning his 300th game, he went 7& 2/3 innings, throwing 146 pitches. I can still hear his grunts.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:33 am

' Real Men of Genius'

Bud Light salutes you Mr. Innings Eater Guy. You toil under a hot sun or air conditioned dome every five days for two hours

(Singer: Hard Worker!!!)

Your role in baseball is as obscure as Ron Shandler at a Star Trek Convention

(Singer: Ron's a Trekkie!!!)

Inning after inning, you keep your team close, allowing the Manager to save his bullpen arms

(Singer: They're more important than you!!!)

While 'Baseball Annies' stop other players, you're the first one to get out of the parking lot

(Singer: You're not getting any tonight!!!)

So crack open a cold one Mr Innings Eater Guy, without you, we couldn't get to the best part of the game

(singer: Mr Innings Eater guyyy!!)

[ January 05, 2010, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:00 am

Funny stuff Dan. Nice keeping ther boards going especially this year. I'm on record for saying pitch counts are nonsense. The only reason they are relevant is because pitchers are babied early now and can't take it if you stress them cause they're simply not used to it. Ryan threw over 300 pithes a few times and yes maybe he's a human abberation, but Fergie Jenkins believes like Nolan pithers can throw like that today too if only allowed too and trained too at an early age. No pitch counts when they pitched. Instead we are moving in the opposite direction. As a teenager you can pitch almost every day and throw 200 pitches easy. It's what I did as a kid and by my 20's could pitch 200+ pitches a day twice a week no problem. Was expected to finish what I started AND serve as the closer in game 2. Something I did more often than not. Not bragging, just saying it can be done and without arm trouble. Continued to do it after a partial tear to my rotator cuff. Not baseball related. Never hurt my arm playing. Di hurt it being a j!@#$%s. Pitching coaches have been nrought up to believe this garbage about "protecting" pitchers. And of course don't want to blame if they don't and something bad does happen.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:20 am

Thanks for the compliments, Dave.

I couldn't agree more with you.

Little League rules are laughable. All part of the wussification of America.

I had a "rubber arm" as well. Threw both ends of a double header in high school and played in a softball game that night. Not a big deal.

What tickles me is that, supposedly, doctors say that the overarm motion is not natural for the human body and that the motion must be regulated. Yet, the motions to warm up before a game, during a game, and throws to first base are not taken into consideration. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Leo Mazzone had it right when he had his pitchers throw everyday without thoughts of pitch counts. Guys like Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, and Millwood had long careers with that Major League genesis.

It's too bad we'll probably never see that kind of thinking again.

Wussification, it's everywhere.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:54 am

Amen!

Raskol · Post by **Raskol** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:55 am

On the eve of his retirement, I'd like to submit that Randy Johnson be added to the list of old-school players. Obviously not as old school as the other players mentioned herein, but he completed 31 games between '99 and '02, tossing 240+ innings each year with 334+ strikeouts as well.

Nobody will come close to that anytime soon. 4875 strikeouts...wow.

And there is at least one bird who was never the same after "attending" one of his games.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:30 am

Good name, Em.

I had one of those weird-ass dreams after the bird incident with the Unit.

I dreamed that there was a big picture of the fallen bird on an easel. Beside it, was a smaller picture of Johnson.

It was a rememberence or funeral type atmosphere and dozens of birds walked by their fallen friend and saluted his/her picture with their wings. After saluting that picture, they walked by Johnson's picture and flipped him the bird (pun intended) perfectly with the other wing.

One of the few times I've woken up with a smile when sports or sex was not the source.

Raskol · Post by **Raskol** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:01 pm

That's one heck of a dream. Makes you wonder how the mind really works.

To put the Unit's 4875 strikeouts into perspective: as a general rule, if I expect a pitcher to get 200+ K's in a year, then I target him in one way or another in a draft. It would take a pitcher 24 years

at 200/year to get close to the Unit.

There are, I'm sure, some people on these boards who aren't 24 years old.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:23 pm

Good stuff, Em.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:26 pm

Originally posted by Navel Lint:

quote:Originally posted by eddiejag:

Talk about an iron man.I wonder why they abused pitchers back in the olden days.I mean he had to have a couple 7 run innings and didnt have that day but you have to finish the game is amazing. Looking at that 1904 St Louis Cardinal team; HOFer Kid Nichols was the pitcher/manager of the team. He started 35 games and completed 35 games. I guess it was the old ‘If I can do it, so can you’ routine.

As a whole, the pitchers on that team completed 146 of 154 games.

Final team record; 75-79 5th place in the 8 team NL [/QUOTE]The starters of the other eight games were shot.

husky88fan · Post by **husky88fan** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:08 pm

Footnote on Jack Taylor: After that remarkable streak, he played exactly ONE more season. I don't know why he didn't play longer, but is it fair to say that all thoses innings took their toll? I guess some middle ground would be ideal. Or at least know for sure the guy knows how to pitch and is not a max-effort, injury prone guy before turning him loose. It'll be interesting to see what the Rangers do with Harden this year and how far-reaching their new pitching philosophy will be.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:32 am

Those are some impressive numbers so I'm not trying to take away from this particular guy, but for everyone that chimes in that pitchers today are wussies, please know that Jack Taylor probably threw at a top speed of 70 mph against guys who would have no business in the majors today and still only managed a K rate that would make Chien-Ming Wang laugh at him. He was getting 1-2 strikeouts in those entire complete game and those were of the foul-foul-caught looking variety. If Rich Harden threw 70 mph, he might be able to throw 240 pitches a game and never get injured, but the results wouldn't be anything you'd want to see.

[ January 10, 2010, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: bjoak ]

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:52 am

Bob Gibson, Juan Marichel, Jenkins etc didn't throw 70 mph, finished what they started, and pitched in 4 man rotations. saw an interview with Marichel that he once threw 238 pitches in a game. Not that anybody was counting at the time or that it meant anything at the time. Now that would mean gross criticizm of any manager that would allow such a thing and a watch would be set up for anything that could get blamed on that outing. Anything and everything that happens afterward that in any way could be conceived as negative would be blamed on such a horrible thing having been done to him. Nolan Ryan several times through more pitches than that with no apparent negative affects and he definatly didn't throw 70 mph. Not trying to pick a fight. Pitch counts really aggravate me.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:29 am

Originally posted by Vander:

Bob Gibson, Juan Marichel, Jenkins etc didn't throw 70 mph, finished what they started, and pitched in 4 man rotations. saw an interview with Marichel that he once threw 238 pitches in a game. Not that anybody was counting at the time or that it meant anything at the time. Now that would mean gross criticizm of any manager that would allow such a thing and a watch would be set up for anything that could get blamed on that outing. Anything and everything that happens afterward that in any way could be conceived as negative would be blamed on such a horrible thing having been done to him. Nolan Ryan several times through more pitches than that with no apparent negative affects and he definatly didn't throw 70 mph. Not trying to pick a fight. Pitch counts really aggravate me. You're talking about some of the greatest pitchers who ever lived. It's not a fair comparison to today's average pitcher who has limits imposed on him. Moreover, it's not like there are so few pitching injuries today, that everyone should just throw caution to the wind.

That's all aside from the point that I was saying a pitcher in the early 1900's had completely different circumstances that made it easier.

By the way, I really enjoyed your last post that said, "I pitched all the time and never had a problem! Then, after my rotator cuff tear..." :rolleyes:

bluenose · Post by **bluenose** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:05 am

What interests me is, in relative terms, how many more players earn a living these days. Go back a hundred years in baseball, or fifty in any other sport, and compare how many teams there were and how big the rosters were.

The baseball player pool is admittedly bigger now (Latinos; not that there are a ton of blacks in baseball today, but at least they are allowed to play) but even still:

Would Jason Kendall have a job in April if this was 1910? What about three-quarters of Toronto's pitching staff? How many Pirates would be in the majors? How many Nationals?

The talent, whatever it is, has alsio been diluted in other sports.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:10 am

Two pages on a mostly anonymous player and his generation, whose major achievments came over 100 years ago.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:24 am

Originally posted by bjoak:

quote:Originally posted by Vander:

Bob Gibson, Juan Marichel, Jenkins etc didn't throw 70 mph, finished what they started, and pitched in 4 man rotations. saw an interview with Marichel that he once threw 238 pitches in a game. Not that anybody was counting at the time or that it meant anything at the time. Now that would mean gross criticizm of any manager that would allow such a thing and a watch would be set up for anything that could get blamed on that outing. Anything and everything that happens afterward that in any way could be conceived as negative would be blamed on such a horrible thing having been done to him. Nolan Ryan several times through more pitches than that with no apparent negative affects and he definatly didn't throw 70 mph. Not trying to pick a fight. Pitch counts really aggravate me. You're talking about some of the greatest pitchers who ever lived. It's not a fair comparison to today's average pitcher who has limits imposed on him. Moreover, it's not like there are so few pitching injuries today, that everyone should just throw caution to the wind.

That's all aside from the point that I was saying a pitcher in the early 1900's had completely different circumstances that made it easier.

By the way, I really enjoyed your last post that said, "I pitched all the time and never had a problem! Then, after my rotator cuff tear..." :rolleyes:

[/QUOTE]

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:38 am

Brian they are some of the greatest of all time, but that's because they were allowed to be. Would it be allowed today, no way. There are probably zillions of mediocre guys out there that could pitch that volume. There aren't likely to be any Randy Johnson's on the horizon either. Even if they could they won't be allowed to throw the amount of pithes he did. As for the arm problems yes there are many. Seems to me more than before and I think it's because of the babying of the pitchers. Your not protecting them your creating the problems by NOT letting them pitch early when they s/b building up arm strength and endurance. As for my tearing my rotator cuff, I often threw 300+ pitches in a day. I had no control and easily fanned more than 1/inning. Unfortunately gave up tons of walks and not many guys even hit the first pitch. Usually they didn't swing hoping for a walk which they often got. I almost always completed what I started and was the closer in game 2 and in those days that often meant 3 more innings. I did not hurt my arm pitching however. I hurt my arm being a moron one offseason yet continued to pitch with it for a few more years though velocity continued to decline. My last year though throwing much slower I finally did what I always wanted to do K 2/inning. I knew how to pitch and to this day can't throw a ball straight. Natural movement whether I want it or not. My point is let the kids throw. Build arm strength and endurance. I think you'll see LESS arm injuries not more. Kids are babied then when they need to throw a little more they can't or break down.

Raskol · Post by **Raskol** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:48 am

Originally posted by Vander:

Brian they are some of the greatest of all time, but that's because they were allowed to be. Would it be allowed today, no way. There are probably zillions of mediocre guys out there that could pitch that volume. There aren't likely to be any Randy Johnson's on the horizon either. Even if they could they won't be allowed to throw the amount of pithes he did. As for the arm problems yes there are many. Seems to me more than before and I think it's because of the babying of the pitchers. Your not protecting them your creating the problems by NOT letting them pitch early when they s/b building up arm strength and endurance. As for my tearing my rotator cuff, I often threw 300+ pitches in a day. I had no control and easily fanned more than 1/inning. Unfortunately gave up tons of walks and not many guys even hit the first pitch. Usually they didn't swing hoping for a walk which they often got. I almost always completed what I started and was the closer in game 2 and in those days that often meant 3 more innings. I did not hurt my arm pitching however. I hurt my arm being a moron one offseason yet continued to pitch with it for a few more years though velocity continued to decline. My last year though throwing much slower I finally did what I always wanted to do K 2/inning. I knew how to pitch and to this day can't throw a ball straight. Natural movement whether I want it or not. My point is let the kids throw. Build arm strength and endurance. I think you'll see LESS arm injuries not more. Kids are babied then when they need to throw a little more they can't or break down. Mind if I draft you on some of my teams?

Seriously, that is impressive. Sorry you hurt yourself. I'm carrying around a few lingering affects of my youth as well.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:53 am

Originally posted by Vander:

Brian they are some of the greatest of all time, but that's because they were allowed to be. Would it be allowed today, no way. There are probably zillions of mediocre guys out there that could pitch that volume. There aren't likely to be any Randy Johnson's on the horizon either. Even if they could they won't be allowed to throw the amount of pithes he did. As for the arm problems yes there are many. Seems to me more than before and I think it's because of the babying of the pitchers. Your not protecting them your creating the problems by NOT letting them pitch early when they s/b building up arm strength and endurance. As for my tearing my rotator cuff, I often threw 300+ pitches in a day. I had no control and easily fanned more than 1/inning. Unfortunately gave up tons of walks and not many guys even hit the first pitch. Usually they didn't swing hoping for a walk which they often got. I almost always completed what I started and was the closer in game 2 and in those days that often meant 3 more innings. I did not hurt my arm pitching however. I hurt my arm being a moron one offseason yet continued to pitch with it for a few more years though velocity continued to decline. My last year though throwing much slower I finally did what I always wanted to do K 2/inning. I knew how to pitch and to this day can't throw a ball straight. Natural movement whether I want it or not. My point is let the kids throw. Build arm strength and endurance. I think you'll see LESS arm injuries not more. Kids are babied then when they need to throw a little more they can't or break down. I can't believe you are in the dark about your own injury. It doesn't matter how you did it. It is years of wear that get it to the point where that happens, whether it is via bowling or throwing a punch or whatever. How many non-pitchers in their 20's do you know who get rotator cuff injuries? Doesn't happen.

As far as the part about less injuries with more pitching, you can disagree, but it's just not what the research says. For example, pitchers who pitch a lot of innings in high school and college break down more often after they get to professional ball. There's been a number of studies on this and none with the opposite conclusion as far as I know.

[ January 12, 2010, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: bjoak ]

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:51 am

My experience (not just my playing, but watching others I played with) says otherwise. OK small sampling. Not scientific and yes I do know several with torn rotator cuffs that never pitched at all. It happens. Mine is only partially torn and I continued to play with it for years even if most of it was on the old softball circuit. Had to give up playing 3b at about 35 cause I couldn't make the throw anymore. Played several more years @ 2b. BTW my left shoulder ain't too good either and I'm right handed. Many days it's worse. And as for studies, let's see if you had the same experience as we did. When we were young we played everyday. we had to wait for the older kids to get off the blacktop field so we could play. Sometimes triple headers. My dad would have to come get me to come home and eat. One of my friends (who also plays in the main event) still lives across the street from the same field. It's abandon. Nobody ever plays there anymore and it's often used as a parking lot (not it's intended purpose). If it's not little league kids don't play anymore. They don't just go and have a pickup game like we did all year long whether it was baseball, football, hockey, whatever. They're not building up at a young age as we did. So yes I wouldn't be surprised if thry do break down more often. Or god forbid they break that golden rule by pitching 30 or more innings more than they did last year. Not a hard thing to do when you don't pitch much at any level. Even kid baseball. The best part of my childhood was going out everyday and playing till it was too dark to see. Something that just sin't done anymore. I have little kids still myself depite my advanced age. Unfortunatly they are not as interested in sports as I was. Neither they nor their freinds go out and play any sport (though I have seen 1 or 2 soccer games spring up) There's no field for them to use and I don't believe they'd use one if they had it. We live too far from school to use that field (they're still young), but anytime I've been there they're empty anyway. Even the kids that live closer don't use them. If you don't buy this non scientific argument, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Too many video games and other distractions. We didn't have cable or cartoons anytime you want. We went out and made our own fun. Which for us was usually sports. Just doesn't happen today. Anybody see kids anywhere just go out and start a game of whatever anymore?

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:56 am

I'm kind of talking about # thrown in HS and college. I totally agree that other types of conditioning and cross-conditioning helps athletes, of course, but pitching is an unnatural motion that the arm wasn't designed for so you have to be a bit conservative about how often you repeat it in short periods. I'm not saying, like, more exercise is bad. It's the biomechanics of pitching itself that wear out an arm.