What CAN 2nd and 3rd Prize Be?

Cellar Dwellers · Post by **Cellar Dwellers** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:52 pm

Dvy-Like I said, I don't have a problem if the Grand Prize became 80K. The reason I don't think it's a good idea is because every piece of advertising and every message that Greg posted announcing a new entrant, he tagged on with, good luck in the quest for 100K. They are trying to brand this contest and you don't go changing the key element in the brand when you are trying to attract people. For Christ's sake, the front page of the site is emblazzoned with "WIN 100,000" in bold letters. Once again, it wouldn't bother me one bit if they made 80K and left the other prizes alone. My problem was with eliminating a 2nd and 3rd overall prize altogether. Hope that answers your question.

Cellar Dwellers · Post by **Cellar Dwellers** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:54 pm

Oops, that was Dyv, not Dvy, sorry.

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:02 pm

Originally posted by Cellar Dwellers:

Oops, that was Dyv, not Dvy, sorry. Yep, that helps me understand where you're coming from. I think whatever it ends up, the headlines are going to read 'BIG DAMN CHECK GIVEN TO SOMEONE'

Dyv/Dvy - happens all the time... my fault for picking a freaky handle/nickname, lol.

We're all good - I'd just like to vote for the big prize coming down around $20k and leave everything else alone.

As with everyone else's commentary - I'm not going anywhere... and I'll see y'all out in Vegas in about a week!

Dave

Team Herron · Post by **Team Herron** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:06 pm

Cellar:

I guess you and I have a different vision as to what builds a brand and creates consumer loyalty. I think the NFBC "brand" should represent the best damned fantasy baseball tournament in the country - period.

To create this brand statement the NFBC has used several marketing tactics; including creating a mutli-site format that allows more drafters at a reduced travel cost, paying out the largest signle prize in the industry that I am currently aware and an unparalleled grass roots marketing campaign. Those are methods of creating a great event, but to me not what the NFBC brand represents.

Chicago wont warrant a draft location next year, and in fact it may be decided that LV and NYC should be the only 2 locations - if so, is the brand tarnished??? No way!

Maybe we are different. I dont buy something simply because it is the cheapest, or super value of the week. that weighs into my decision, but ultimately I want to buy quality at an affordable price.

No matter how this prize money is cut, Greg has created what I believe to be a quality event and established the NFBC brand. Changing the grand prize will do nothing to tarnish that.

I am off of my soapbox - it is late!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:30 pm

Lower the grand prize. You guys can't have your cake and eat it too (uh umm, Gecko-the site troublemaker).

If you are the overall winner and are pissed you only got 80K (plus your 5K from winning your own league), then the league would function better without you.

Enjoy this experience and help Greg get this off the ground. And next year we will have the 300 teams and be building the ultimate fantasy baseball league!

PittIsIt95 · Post by **PittIsIt95** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:30 pm

Lower the grand prize. You guys can't have your cake and eat it too .

If you are the overall winner and are pissed you only got 80K (plus your 5K from winning your own league), then the league would function better without you.

Enjoy this experience and help Greg get this off the ground. And next year we will have the 300 teams and be building the ultimate fantasy baseball league!

[ March 10, 2004, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: PittIsIt95 ]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:54 pm

Why is nobody saying: "Wow, I signed up for a contest that was top heavy but gave me a 1 in 300 chance for big bucks and now it turns out my chances have improved to 1 in 165. What a great deal for those in this year."

Don't let 1 or 2 loudmouths (read small lizards) prevent you from making the changes necessary for the sponsors to continue this thing.

My understanding is that the NFBC has 2 choices, give out $100K or cancel. They are not allowed to have a contest with a 1st prize based on entries. They could cancel and have you sign up for a different contest, but I suspect that is impractical at this late date.

Lastly, I have played in the "Professional Bridge Tour" that likewise gave out prizes exceeding income. Players never appreciated that fact and didn't support the effort in a major way. That lasted for a surprising 3 years before the organizers pulled in their horns and reduced the payouts dramatically. My suggestion is to accept the NFBC decision on prize structure, whatever it turns out to be and look forwards, not backwards.

viper · Post by **viper** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:56 pm

I believe I read a post from Greg today that we have 11 leagues. If we get a 12th league, then an additional $11,250 is available for the prize fund. That, at least, puts the contest in the black BEFORE all the expense it has incurred - but easily in the RED overall. I don't know the answer but would that mean that $15K still needs to be "found"?

Reducing the overall 2nd/3rd/4th to $12K/$6K/$2K would get $5K. Reducing the league 3rd place to $500 (under the 1099 requirement) would save $3K. Eliminate the 7th & 8th overall free entries and another $2.5K is "found". Possibly that could get things close enough. I can't believe that a profit was expected in year 1.

As far as memorabilia goes, it is hard to share in a partnership and I personally would not to pay taxes on some "stuff" that was arbitrarily valued over $600. If a "$750" jersey was awarded, I am pretty sure that a 1099 would be required and who is truly to say that a Jersey is worth $750. A football entry is absurd because there is no guarantee that the winner even enjoys fantasy football that much.

The overall $100K and the league $5K needs to be maintained.

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:00 pm

Originally posted by :

Why is nobody saying: "Wow, I signed up for a contest that was top heavy but gave me a 1 in 300 chance for big bucks and now it turns out my chances have improved to 1 in 165. What a great deal for those in this year."

Don't let 1 or 2 loudmouths (read small lizards) prevent you from making the changes necessary for the sponsors to continue this thing.

My understanding is that the NFBC has 2 choices, give out $100K or cancel. They are not allowed to have a contest with a 1st prize based on entries. They could cancel and have you sign up for a different contest, but I suspect that is impractical at this late date.

Lastly, I have played in the "Professional Bridge Tour" that likewise gave out prizes exceeding income. Players never appreciated that fact and didn't support the effort in a major way. That lasted for a surprising 3 years before the organizers pulled in their horns and reduced the payouts dramatically. My suggestion is to accept the NFBC decision on prize structure, whatever it turns out to be and look forwards, not backwards. Ghostly voice: You're saying all the other prizes could be changed, but 1st overall has some legal protection? Hmmm... ??

If the $100k has to remain fixed then we can talk about the other alternatives... but I'd like to find out if people are open to that or against it and let Greg pick up the decision.

I don't think anyone would have a problem clicking on a box accepting the alterations nor would we have any trouble signing something on draft day, etc.

If someone really is in it 'just for the $100k' they haven't spoken up yet...

Dave

viper · Post by **viper** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:00 pm

To the "voice of reason".

You clearly don't have non-refundable reservations on planes or for hotels rooms. I am taking a train to NY and can cancel my room but that isn't the case with everyone, especially those flying on discounted fares or booking rooms through Travelocity.

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:02 pm

Originally posted by viper:

As far as memorabilia goes, it is hard to share in a partnership and I personally would not to pay taxes on some "stuff" that was arbitrarily valued over $600. If a "$750" jersey was awarded, I am pretty sure that a 1099 would be required and who is truly to say that a Jersey is worth $750. A football entry is absurd because there is no guarantee that the winner even enjoys fantasy football that much.

Viper - you would receive a 1099 for the 'ERV' Estimated Retail Value of an item. Then you find the same product elsewhere on the internet for as cheap as possible and you claim and pay taxes on the 'ACTUAL' value of that item. I've won a few TV sets and it never fails that the 'ERV' is 40% higher than the real price of that TV set on the internet. I simply print out the webpage for my records and write in the declared value of what I won for tax purposes.

D

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:25 pm

I agree with a few others that cutting too deep for those that finish near the top would be a big negative for the players. Whoever finishes close will have had a great season and proven to be highly skilled - whoever wins among that group probably had the best luck. Too big a gap (such as second place paying 7.5% of first) isn't good for the game. Ideally, it should be even higher, I'd put it in the 20%-30% range.

Cutting the $100 would probably be better from the players standpoint, but clearly damages the event marketing. Not only is 6 figures psycholgically significant, but reducing it after it was the focal point of the ad campaign would hint at the event being less than a full success.

All that said, I would bet at least one more league fills up, and only a slight adjustment if any is needed - perhaps Greg is just setting us up to exceed expectations. Beat expectations and the shareholders are happy - works everyday in the stock market.

Nevadaman · Post by **Nevadaman** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:33 pm

KJ, You are right. The $100K is critically important because the entire marketing campaign is based on that fact. You can't do anything that would exude that kind of negativity and make a potential player wince. After reading all these posts, I think there's a consensus not to cut the top prize, but a reduction to $10K and $5K (combined savings $7.5K) for 2nd and 3rd respectively I think we could all live with. Eliminate 4th overall ($2.5K savings). As for leagues, there seems to be a strong consensus to keep 1st and 2nd as is. However, no one is overly concerned with 3rd in league. Perhaps that could be cut completely. That's a savings of over $8K right there and at least $18K total. If we could live with that...then the problem is basically solved.

Fantasy Jungle · Post by **Fantasy Jungle** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:26 pm

My 2 cents for what it is worth. We are competitors with Greg, although our game is online, as well as participants in his contest, so I think I can see this from several sides of the glass. We faced a similar situation with our football game this past season, which was our company's first.

We advertised for 1,000 players and we had 72. Although we advertised our prize pool based off of 1000 players, we had to prorate it down for the overall prizes. Ultimately, what we decided to do was eliminate 5th-10th since there werent a lot of players and beef up 1-5th. We did however prorate it as if there were 150 entries so we could still pay meaningful overall prizes, ultimately kicking back a 102% payback, which was crazy but we wanted to show those 72 guys that we are here to stay and we care about them, because we do.

Now I dont mean to harp on that, but my point is I truly believe that Greg is one of the good guys in an industry where there arent a lot of them, and he truly has a passion for this contest. I think anyone that has spoken with him would probably feel the same way. Alot of people here have talked about longevity and the future of this event and that is what the key thing is here. Most games would go under, leaving everyone looking for a last minute replacement to play, or even worse, some have gone bankrupt in the middle of the season and shafted people out of their prizes. That is the easy thing to do and most of us have probably been in a contest like that at one time. Whether its 80K or 100K or wahtever, its still a nice wad of cash, and more importantly, its a good start to an event that should get bigger and better.

Whatever Greg decides to do, I think should be respected. Its obvious he is going to do the best possible thing for everyone and will do it with good intentions. If that means slashing 20K off the top and spreading that out to 2nd and 3rd, thats fine. While fantasy definately has a great skill element, there still is a luck factor, and all you can do is try and put yourself in a positon to win it all at the end. For whoever finishes 2nd and 3rd to get that extra 10K-20K over a free entry would be pretty meaningful.

There are certain big event games out there where you are nothing more than a credit card or check #. You get to play in their game, but that's about it. You can fend for yourself with customer service issues or getting your check and thats really disturbing. This looks to be the start of a great community and one that will grow. Im sure that whatever decision is made, will be the best one.

Best of luck to all and look forward to meeting everyone in Vegas.

Michael

Top Dawg · Post by **Top Dawg** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:54 am

I voiced my 2 cents yesterday about trying to make sure decent cash awards are paid out to at least the top 3 overall winners. I suggested cutting 2nd to $10K and 3rd to $5K along with modest cuts elsewhere. I honestly believe we need to reward the top 3 overall with enough to make the hard work and constant management of their teams worth it.

Having said that, I am all for keeping the 2nd and 3rd overall prizes as advertised (as well as 4th - 8th) and reducing the Grand Prize by as much of the $25K Greg needs when all the sign-ups are finalized. Heck, $75 Grand (or more) is still an amazing amount of money to win for doing something you love to do anyway.

Pete

Jackstraw · Post by **Jackstraw** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:20 am

After doing some reading through all of the posts, I finally saw an answer about Uncle Sam's cut. First of all, this conversation is just going to help dissuade any of the fence sitters by talk of changing the prizes.

Second, start with the easiest cut first - the prizes at the $750 range. Make those $500 or so, anything below the reportable limit of $600. If I ain't winning the big money, then I don't want to have to deal with the IRS.

Now those prizes in the $1750 range... By the time we pay taxes, we are basically going to get our entry fee back. Just make those free entries into the football league this year or the baseball league next year, or make it an option of money back. Make it the player's option. I figure that since we are all in this thing anyway, very few people will opt to get their money back.

I don't know how much that saves the NFBC, but I don't think that you can touch any of the overall prize money. Semantics, philosophy, or whatever... I just don't think that changing the overall prize money is a good thing for the future of the NFBC. I agree with some of the posts that are saying, "Hey, what's the difference between $100K and $80K when you win?" But it is all about advertising and integrity. Greg has advertised and marketed this thing pretty hard at those overall prize levels. The league's integrity is based upon those overall prizes. If anything takes a hit, it has to be the individual league prizes.

Leaderboard Sports · Post by **Leaderboard Sports** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:48 am

I'm in it yearly regardless of how Greg decides.

I enjoy the live draft, participating in a grand scale event, and hanging out with the guys in Vegas. It's entertainment for me and no more than a new set of irons in the golf bag.

Even though I would prefer dropping the top prize and leaving the rest alone, I certainly see the advertising advantage of the 6 figure top prize. Full page ads next year with me receiving a $100,000 check would look much more impressive to a prospective 2005 entrant than me receiving an $80,000 check. Even though I would be happy with either.

So I guess what I want is what's best for the long term health of the contest. My preference is to spread the wealth from the top prize but I can see the advantage in plastering a big number top prize on advertising.

Harlem Hangover · Post by **Harlem Hangover** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:11 am

I agree with some of the other posters that keeping the overall top prize intact is vital to the NFBC for the years to come.. As a player i would have no problem winning a grand prize of 80k and dont mind it being lowered, but i think from a marketing /brand name perspective , lowering the grand prize would be detrimental to the league..

I agree with gekko and dyv that the discrepency between 1st and than 2nd and 3rd prizes is too great and definetely tough to swallow for those who finish in those spots.. But the gap is even greater in the WCOFF and it hasnt seemed to hurt the popularity of that contest at all (even though it was complained about all year on the boards)... I guess in order to market a contest like this that has such a big overall grand prize for a set number of entrants, those discprepencies will be impossible to erase. Also remeber, more than likely, if you are actually do finish 2,3,or 4th.. you most likely will be taking home 5k from winning your league in addition to the other prize.

Personally, i knew about the WCOFF 2 years ago but decided not to enter because i was afraid it could potentially be a scam and thought it was a hefty fee to risk for something i had any doubts about.. So i watched the competiton play out for the year, saw everyone get paid out, and than decided to enter this past year.. I think for many of the "fence sitters" this year , and others who may be skeptical, seeing the big prize paid out in full will be an important factor for next year and the years to come

[ March 11, 2004, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Harlem Hangover ]

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:45 am

Originally posted by Leaderboard Sports:

I'm in it yearly regardless of how Greg decides.

I enjoy the live draft, participating in a grand scale event, and hanging out with the guys in Vegas. It's entertainment for me and no more than a new set of irons in the golf bag.

Even though I would prefer dropping the top prize and leaving the rest alone, I certainly see the advertising advantage of the 6 figure top prize. Full page ads next year with me receiving a $100,000 check would look much more impressive to a prospective 2005 entrant than me receiving an $80,000 check. Even though I would be happy with either.

So I guess what I want is what's best for the long term health of the contest. My preference is to spread the wealth from the top prize but I can see the advantage in plastering a big number top prize on advertising. Ken, having you in a print ad will NOT be a benefit to the contest... lol

Dave

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:06 am

Another Idea...

I agree that the $100K needs to remain intact. After all that amount is plastered all over 95% of the advertising associated with this event. One way to maintain the $100K but still save a little money would be to just pay the overall winner his $100K but not his league winnings. At best you would save $5K assuming he wins his league, at worst I think you save $2500 (as the winner is not likely to finish lower than 2nd in his own league). I think the other idea about lowering the 3rd place league money to $500 is also good.

I personally find it amusing that all you so-called *high stakes players* are concerning yourselves over prize money for 2nd through whatever places. I paid my $1250 to WIN $100K. I did not calculate my chances of winning $15000 or $7500 for 2nd or 3rd and I think the disappointment of not winning the overall title far outweighs the pain of getting only $10K or $5K for those places. Odds are you will still be league winners and bring home an additional $5K.

BONGIZMO · Post by **BONGIZMO** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:03 am

One thing to consider is that the 100K Ad campaign did attract far more people to this event versus a competiting one taking place at the same time. To not deliver on that Grand Prize can have adverse effects going forward so that point raised is indeed valid...

I for one will play for whatever prize if the odds seem to make it worth it and 1 in 165 isn't bad. However there is also an amount of luck involved that can effect the difference between 1rst and 3rd thus the payouts should warrant having finished that high. It's not all about the Grand Prize but the odds of getting in the money and feeling rewarded for doing so...

BB of the Leaderboard · Post by **BB of the Leaderboard** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:04 am

Originally posted by :

I personally find it amusing that all you so-called *high stakes players* are concerning yourselves over prize money for 2nd through whatever places. I paid my $1250 to WIN $100K.I'll take you at your word that you are signed up and are just posting anonymously for reasons of your own. Even if not, one of the "joys" of being a registered participant and poster on this type of board is the pleasure and amusement we afford for the unregistered lurkers. Lurk on, lads!!

I do take exception, though, to your characterization as being one of the "all" who are expressing their angst over prize levels for the various "consolation" prizes. I was one of the first registrants, twice over, and did so understanding the risks attendant to being in such a contest for the first year. All I have to say to Greg is, "Make this work and let's move on." All this palaver over how and which prizes to reduce can't be helping with sign-ups. :rolleyes:

B(Lay out the stakes and let's get on with it)B

Bags · Post by **Bags** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:07 am

Start by eliminating 3rd for your league completely. That gives you $8250 if it remains at 11 leagues... The only other place I can see is dropping 3rd OA to $5000. That still only brings it to $10,750 saved. Maybe drop 4th OA to $1,750 (it can't be lower than 2nd in your league) and now it is $11,500 saved.

[ March 11, 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Bags ]

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:11 am

You are right BB and it's time to move on. I feel like I've allowed 165 people to balance my check book and make next month's budget for me. It's time to recruit another league and then have KP do the right thing. We are looking for other revenue streams right now.

Walter Sobczak · Post by **Walter Sobczak** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:17 am

My buddy (rival) and I from STATS Inc fantasy baseball are in for drafting in Chicago. Marc Moeller got me hooked so that is one less team to worry about.

Havent really looked at 5X5 much because that isnt my style so a nice 3 day cram session is in order so we can RULE our league.

Hope our little bit helps.....